This is topic Stanislaus Zbyszko THREE time world hwt champion in forum Lou Thesz forum at WrestlingClassics.com Message Board.


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Posted by ttf (Member # 34) on :
 
6/12/31 Reno Papers: Stanislause Zbyszko referred to as THREE times world hwt champion. Note: Wonder what the 3rd would refer to. Here are my Stanislaus championship items. You tell me!

1906 Paris: Zby wins world GR title. Probably one of those tourney wins.

1/17/12 Minn: Zby def American Champ Henry Ordeman.

12/24/12 Zby is a catch claimant (since Gotch retirement)

1/16/14 Boston: Zby def Alex Aberg to claim world GR title.

3/4/14 Zby called world champion in Minneapolis bout.

2/15/20 Zby arrives back in US. Claims world GR title.

12/13/20 NYC: (Lewis/Stecher match) Zby climbed into the ring and refused to leave, claiming he was the rightful champion and neither man would meet him.

5/6/21 NYC: Zby wins title from Ed Lewis.

4/15/25 Phil: Zby wins title from Wayne Munn

6/19/26 Zby billed as world champ in Auckland, NZ
 
Posted by Indikator (Member # 4922) on :
 
The 1906 tournament victory was at the "Casino De Paris" , Georg Lurich placed second and Constant Le Marin third. Casion De Paris was the location where Paul Pons won the tournament in 1898, I think it was the most important venue in France at the time. But as a (probably) yearly tournament a title lineage seems rather unlikely

[ 04-16-2007, 07:01 AM: Message edited by: Indikator ]
 
Posted by Mark Madison (Member # 18225) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by ttf:
6/12/31 Reno Papers: Stanislause Zbyszko referred to as THREE times world hwt champion. Note: Wonder what the 3rd would refer to. Here are my Stanislaus championship items. You tell me!

He actually was a three-time World Heavyweight Champion. These are his three legitimate world title victories the Reno Papers most likely refer to:

05/07/1914 in Kansas City, MO: Stanislaus Zbyszko defeats Americus (Gus Schoenlein)

05/06/1921 in New York, NY: Stanislaus Zbyszko defeats Ed Lewis

04/15/1925 in Philadelphia, PA: Stanislaus Zbyszko defeats Wayne Munn

Here's a link to the Aberg/Zbyszko match for the Greco-Roman world title on 02/26/1914 in Boston, MA: http://wrestlingclassics.com/.ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=10;t=002264

And here you can view some photos of Zbyszko: http://wrestlingclassics.com/.ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=10;t=002792

[ 03-15-2009, 07:40 PM: Message edited by: Mark Madison ]
 
Posted by ttf (Member # 34) on :
 
Does the KC claim result from the 3/13/14 KC Beele/Americus match Gotch suggested for his title? Americus won.
 
Posted by Mark Madison (Member # 18225) on :
 
Yes, it does. Zbyszko left the United States later in the year, so it seems quite obvious that his title reign in the U.S. was forgotten (probably never really accepted by the public, who still considered Gotch the real champ). Zbyszko being detained in Russia apparently was the ideal opportunity for Gotch to push someone else as the "world's champion", i.e. Charlie Cutler in February 1915.

I have the Beell/Americus bout taking place in Chicago: http://wrestlingclassics.com/.ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=10;t=001440

[ 03-15-2009, 07:45 PM: Message edited by: Mark Madison ]
 
Posted by Steve Yohe (Member # 302) on :
 
I'm pretty sure that Cutlers push as wc in Chicago was done just so Stecher would have someone to beat. This would help build the Stecher/Gotch match. Cutlers's push dies after lossing to Joe. Career isn't much after that.

Has anyone ever read anything on Cutler being Curley's booker in NYC?--Yohe
 
Posted by Mark Madison (Member # 18225) on :
 
Absolutely right. Anyway, I think it was the most opportune time to do so since both Americus and Zbyszko were out of the title picture. Hadn't Americus lost the title, he probably would have received the push from Gotch, instead of Cutler. And hadn't Zbyszko left the country, he still would have had the rightful claim to the world title, thus overshadowing Cutler's and the build-up to his bout with Stecher.

[ 03-15-2009, 07:53 PM: Message edited by: Mark Madison ]
 
Posted by Steve Yohe (Member # 302) on :
 
Yeah, but they weren't behind Stan Zbyszko because he couldn't draw after lossing to Gotch.

When Stan returned in 1920, there were still some fans who remember he was the true #1 before 1914...so they put the title on him to see how it would do.

Once Stecher drew 15,000 vs Cutler, he was the man in everyone's eyes.

Yohe
 
Posted by Mark Madison (Member # 18225) on :
 
Steve, if you find the time, could you please tell me something on Zbyszko concerning the time span between 1914 and 1920?! That's pretty much all the information of Zbyszko I need to know for my records, so any help is greatly appreciated.

When, where, and against whom did Zbyszko have his last title defense (if billed as such) and/or his last match in general in the U.S. before leaving the country in 1914?

Is the exact date of his departure known? (I have "by October 1914" in my records, which is quite inaccurate.)
Did he directly leave for Russia, or did he first leave for Europe and was tricked to Russia by Aberg from there?

From a 2003 collector's card entitled "The Life-or-Deatch Wrestling Match" of the series "Historic World Champions":
"February 2 (MM: we know it was 26), 1914 Zbyszko defeated Alex Aberg in Boston for the Greco-Roman world heavyweight title. Aberg refused to pay Stan a 6000 ruble debt. Tricking Stan to Russia for a return bout, Aberg told the Bolsheviki that Zbyszko was an Austrian spy. Stan was then arrested and threatened with secret execution. Stan could only prove his innocence by valor if he defeated Aberg for a purse of gold. If Stan lost: Sudden Death. Zbyszko pinned Aberg in 2 hrs. 43 min. then threw all the gold into the crowd to escape. Stan was detained in Russia until the 1918 Armistice – only then released to Poland – starved and bankrupt, but still alive." (The card says the story was originally recounted in Nat FLeischer's "From Milo to Londos" in 1936.)

Is this true? If so, do you have the exact date and place for this match?

What was his first match back in the U.S.A.? I have one against John Olin on 03/29/1920 in New York. Has there been an earlier one?

I know you're no answering robot, so just if you find the time. Of course, anyone else able and willing to help is also very much welcome. Thank you.

[ 03-29-2009, 07:15 AM: Message edited by: Mark Madison ]
 
Posted by Indikator (Member # 4922) on :
 
Never heard that story. Sounds insane. As far as I know a dutch wrestler who was rather successful was executed during WWI. I think I read it on the old DragonKing board. It's really a shame that there isn't a place like that anymore.

I have two German books from the early 20s, let's see what they write

1922 book "Die bedeutendsten Ringer der Welt" / "The most important wrestlers of the world"

"For the last 12 years (Stanislaus) has been living in North America..."

They then mention his 1921 title win against Lewis.

Post-WWI books tended to be drenched with Anti-Sowjet propaganda. Like that Ivan Poddubny was murdered in 1920 for being a rich guy who owns a mill *gasp* . Anyway, as Poddubny did not die in 1920 you might realize that the propaganda would have been used for pretty much any case where it might have been due. This item was from the first book. The second book states that Aberg and Lurich were murdered by Bolshewiks. And Poddubny when he tried to escape Odessa.
Geez, from those books you might think that Bolschewiki were devils and Menschewiki were angels

And regarding Wladek:
"His (last?) bigger victory was in 1912 in Paris. He beat his brother in the finals and also the Dane Jess Petersen. He has retired for quite some time and has a (latifundia/hacienda) in Havanna."

Maybe Jess was the alleged spy. Can't remember

"Lexikon der Schwerathletik" 1922
"Lexica of heavy athletics"

"Schwerathletik" means "heavy athletics" , like weight lifting and wrestling.

"Leichtathletik" means "light athletics" which is commonly called track and field athletics.

The term Schwerathletik is almost forgotten, I myself only stumbled over it when I had tried for a couple of months to gather sources. But who am I kidding, pretty much anything is forgotten over here. Although even the most reputable amateur wrestling experts stil list the earliest pro wrestling tournaments as official amateur wrestling world championships [Big Grin]

Anyways, onto Zbyszko I and Zbyszko II
Stanislaus was supposed to have won the world title with wins over "Charles Cadock" and Lewis.

For Wladek (who both books list with his first name Ladislaus and have Wladek as his ring name) they mention his 1915 US stint and how he beat Constant Le Marin in early 1922 after 2 hours and 12 minutes.

Measurements from the second book in centimeters
Stanislaus
height: 176
neck: 56
chest: 125 / 130
arm/bizeps: 45 / 53
forearm: 39
thigh: 80
calf muscle: 50
weight: 120

Wladek
height: 185
neck:
chest: 118 / 128
arm/bizeps: 45
forearm:
thigh: 70
calf muscle: 46
weight: 100

[ 03-16-2009, 09:22 PM: Message edited by: Indikator ]
 
Posted by ttf (Member # 34) on :
 
The last USA match I have is 6/4/24 Baltimore: Stanislaus drew Americus.

12/2/17 S.Zbyszko def Aberg in Petrograd, Russia recently.

There was a big article about this death match in one of the magazines back in the early fifties. I believe it was Wrestling Magazine. I also believe some of the articles for that brief series of magazines were posted here. Whether this one was included I don't know. Check "search".

1/30/20 Zbyszko attends the STecher/Caddock match in NYC. Doesn't say which Zbyszko, but probably Stanislaus

The first US match I have for Stanislaus is 2/24/20 Pittsburgh: S Zbyszko def Karl Lemie
 
Posted by Indikator (Member # 4922) on :
 
Karl Lemie? Coudl that have been Lemle? I think I remember some guy with the last name Lemle (maybe Lemmle or Lämmle)

Edit:
"Carl Lemle, Bohemian wrestler par excellence with Ivan Michaillof's troupe"

I really don't know how you can pronounce Lämmle like that. Its like the first three letters of Le Mont and another "le" . Sometimes I really hate Ellis Island, it would be way easier to research had those people been not so stupid/ignorant

[ 03-17-2009, 11:09 AM: Message edited by: Indikator ]
 
Posted by Mark Madison (Member # 18225) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by ttf:
The last USA match I have is 6/4/24 Baltimore: Stanislaus drew Americus.

If this really was the last match before his departure, it furtherly explains why his title reign was forgotten. It was a short one, perhaps with the only title defense (if billed as such) made against the man he took it from. Add his time in a Russian prison during World War I and you've got the reasons for the easy "disappearance out of the record books".
It still leaves open these questions:
Is the exact date of his departure known?
Did he directly leave for Russia, or did he first leave for Europe and was tricked to Russia by Aberg from there?

quote:
Originally posted by ttf:
12/2/17 S.Zbyszko def Aberg in Petrograd, Russia recently.

Seems to be the life-or-death match. I can't imagine Zbyszko's being taken out of prison for a match more than once. So we have the place and that it was recently before 12/02/17. Exact date still missing.

quote:
Originally posted by ttf:
There was a big article about this death match in one of the magazines back in the early fifties. I believe it was Wrestling Magazine. I also believe some of the articles for that brief series of magazines were posted here. Whether this one was included I don't know. Check "search".

Ironically, the search took me back to your post, ttf, but didn't find anything else.

quote:
Originally posted by ttf:
1/30/20 Zbyszko attends the STecher/Caddock match in NYC. Doesn't say which Zbyszko, but probably Stanislaus

The first US match I have for Stanislaus is 2/24/20 Pittsburgh: S Zbyszko def Karl Lemie

That's by far the earliest one I've heard of.

Thanks a lot, ttf.

[ 04-26-2009, 05:35 PM: Message edited by: Mark Madison ]
 
Posted by ttf (Member # 34) on :
 
Lemle, I'm sure. Either my typing or dislexia got in the way no doubt
 
Posted by ttf (Member # 34) on :
 
Google Zbyszko Aberg Russia
 
Posted by Mark Madison (Member # 18225) on :
 
I googled it and found the Petrograd match confirmed, but like before couldn't find its exact date (probably only Russian newspapers covered it back then).

Anyway, more important to me is the exact date of his departure from the U.S. I can't believe the date is nowhere to be found.

Well, as long as no one posts a later 1914-match of his, I'll take the June 4th-one in Baltimore as the latest, which apparently resulted in a double dq or no contest: "Americus/Stanislaus Zbyszko from 6/4/14 where Americus tossed Zbyszko into the orchastra pit, then Zbyszko did the same to Americus, which led a confusing draw finish" (posted by Tomer Chen on 04-27-2004 in the thread "Earl Caddock Bio by Yohe").

[ 04-26-2009, 05:37 PM: Message edited by: Mark Madison ]
 
Posted by Steve Yohe (Member # 302) on :
 
WRESTLES TO SAVE LIFE IN RUSSA
Wichita Eagle
March 25, 1920

CHICAHO March 24—Stanislaus Zbyszko, famous Polish wrestler, who has returned to the United States after an absence of about ten years, tells a thrilling story dealing with the revolutionary days in Russia that would make a capital movie scenario.

“I wasn’t locked up,” says the big Pole. “They merely insisted that I remain in Russia and report often to the offcals. I was allowed to wrestle and took part in several matches.”

“Then along came Kerensky and the revolution which he led. His reign nearly cost me my life.”

“George Lurich and Alex Aberg, wrestlers well known in the United States, were monopolizing the sport in Russia to such an extent that to oppose them in any way was dangerous. Aberg owed me 6,000 rubles though, and I tried to collect it. He refused to pay and told the police of Petrograd that I was an Austrain spy, merely posing as a great wrestler so that I could roam about Russia collecting information.”

“The country was swarming with spics than and the police made little ado about arresting them and sentencing them to jail or the firing squad.”

“When they arrested me I thought my time had come. But the police in quizzing me, let out the fact that Aberg said I was not a well known wrestler but that I was faking the role to get by. This gave me a chance. I asked the police to let me wrestle Aberg to prove that I was a real star and not an imposter. They ordered Aberg to give me a chance at him—much against his will. When we stepped onto the mat I saw in a minute that Aberg had packed the place with his friends and that I would have to win decisively to get alive.”

“After two hours of wrestling, such as Americans—or any other fans never have seen—I threw him. The police released me and ordered Aberg pay me the 6,000 rubies. He gave me 1,000 in the ring.”
 
Posted by Steve Yohe (Member # 302) on :
 
Stan Zbyszko's Measurements from a weight lifting artical.

Chest--50 3/4
Chest expanded--52
Waist-40 (36 3/4 draw in)
Neck--20 1/2
Right upper arm--20.8 flexed--19,2 straight
Left arm flexed--18.8
Right forearm-16.8
Wrist-8.6
Thigh-28 3/4
Calf-18 1/2
Shoulder circumference--60 3/4
 
Posted by Mark Madison (Member # 18225) on :
 
Thank you for the article, Steve!
Having read the terms "prison, jail, internment camp" in various references in this context, I thought Zbyszko had spent almost all of the time during World War I in a Russian prison. But it actually was only a short time.

Considering the beginning of the October Revolution in Russia on 10/25/17 and the information posted by ttf (12/2/17 S.Zbyszko def Aberg in Petrograd, Russia recently), the match took place some time between those two dates, likely in November 1917.

Zbyszko's own account shows that the story on the collector's card is true, but was dramatized in one aspect (as if it wasn't dramatic enough!): he didn't throw the rubles into the crowd to escape, but was released by the police.

[ 03-20-2009, 11:06 PM: Message edited by: Mark Madison ]
 
Posted by phoenixkeeper (Member # 5380) on :
 
In working out your dates, you should be aware that the Russian calendar doesn't match the Western one, so you have to know what calendar is being referred to. I can't remember exactly how it works, but the "October revolution" isn't in October in both calendars, for example.
 
Posted by Mark Madison (Member # 18225) on :
 
Thanks, phoenixkeeper. You're right. 10/25 in Russia's then Julian calendar is 11/07 in the "West"'s present Gregorian calendar (which is also used by Russia today).
So it is even more likely the match took place in November 1917. [Wink]

ttf, what's the source for your 12/02/17-Petrograd information? A Russian or an American/Western newspaper?

I certainly don't want to talk too much about political history, but it's necessary in this case.
On July 28th, 1914, Austria-Hungary declared war on Serbia, which marked the official beginning of World War I, if I'm not mistaken. Probably Stanislaus Zbyszko had already been to Russia by this date (which would also fit in the time frame of his last U.S. match on June 4th, as posted by ttf), since I don't see any reason for him to leave the U.S. for a continent on which a war had already broken out. On the other hand, maybe it was safe to dwell in Russia prior to the revolution?! Or Zbyszko had already embarked on a tour there when the war broke out, and then there was no more way to return. Now that makes more sense.
Does anybody know how long it took travelers by ship to cross the Atlantic Ocean? And afterwards how long it took to get from Western Europe to Petrograd? Or was there a direct non-stop maritime route from the U.S. to Russia for "everyday passengers"?

One more thing coming to my mind:

quote:
Originally posted by ttf:
2/15/20 Zby arrives back in US. Claims world GR title.

If Stanislaus indeed arrives back on this date (or a couple of days prior),

quote:
Originally posted by ttf:
1/30/20 Zbyszko attends the STecher/Caddock match in NYC. Doesn't say which Zbyszko, but probably Stanislaus

then this Zbyszko is likely to be Wladek.

[ 03-20-2009, 10:48 AM: Message edited by: Mark Madison ]
 
Posted by ttf (Member # 34) on :
 
I'm guilty of not keeping track of sources in my files, but you can be sure it was American, newspaper or magazine.
 
Posted by Mark Madison (Member # 18225) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by ttf:
The last USA match I have is 6/4/24 Baltimore: Stanislaus drew Americus.

12/2/17 S.Zbyszko def Aberg in Petrograd, Russia recently.

Ok. So it was an American source, which means Gregorian calendar, which means the Petrograd match took place some time between 11/07/14 and 12/02/14. Taking into consideration that it says "recently" plus the possible delay of wrestling news (as being secondary to political/military news during that time) from Russia to the U.S., it seems to have taken place around mid-November.

By the way: I hadn't noticed the typing error of the Baltimore match above until now. I automatically referred to it as "6/4/14".

[ 03-20-2009, 11:50 AM: Message edited by: Mark Madison ]
 
Posted by RagingBull (Member # 6470) on :
 
quote:
Considering the beginning of the October Revolution in Russia on 10/25/17 and the information posted by ttf (12/2/17 S.Zbyszko def Aberg in Petrograd, Russia recently), the match took place some time between those two dates, likely in November 1917.[/QB]
10/25/17 was the start of the bolshevik revolution ("october revolution")
Alexander Kerensky (mentioned by Zbyszko in the article: “Then along came Kerensky and the revolution which he led. His reign nearly cost me my life.”) was prime minister from July 1917, after the "february revolution"

[ 03-20-2009, 12:06 PM: Message edited by: RagingBull ]
 
Posted by Mark Madison (Member # 18225) on :
 
You're absolutely right, Raging Bull. I'm not very familiar with Russia's interior history. Thanks for straightening me out!

According to Zbyszko himself (in the article posted by Steve Yohe), it wasn't the Bolsheviki who arrested him (as the collector's card story implies), but the Kerensky regime.

Therefore, the Petrograd match didn't take place after the October Revolution, but after the February Revolution (beginning on March 8 of the Gregorian calendar). Considering the December 2-American article stating "recently", it supposedly took place not long before November 7 (= beginning of the October Revolution). I won't speculate any further. Either someone has the exact date or he hasn't.

[ 05-02-2009, 07:46 AM: Message edited by: Mark Madison ]
 
Posted by Mark Madison (Member # 18225) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Madison on 03-14-2009 in this thread:
He actually was a three-time World Heavyweight Champion. These are his three legitimate world title victories the Reno Papers most likely refer to:

05/07/1914 in Kansas City, MO: Stanislaus Zbyszko defeats Americus (Gus Schoenlein)

05/06/1921 in New York, NY: Stanislaus Zbyszko defeats Ed Lewis

04/15/1925 in Philadelphia, PA: Stanislaus Zbyszko defeats Wayne Munn

I'm glad I put "most likely" in there, because I've reviewed it and came to the conclusion that it's quite unlikely they included Zbyszko's 1914 win over Americus. Has anyone of you ever read any account of it actually being referred to as a title victory in the newspapers?!

As long as there is no such report, this means that the Reno Papers, uh, more likely refer to these (all of which were covered as title victories by the then-newspapers):

02/26/1914 in Boston, MA: Stanislaus Zbyszko defeats Alex Aberg for the Graeco-Roman world title

05/06/1921 in New York, NY: Stanislaus Zbyszko defeats Ed Lewis for the catch-as-catch-can world title

04/15/1925 in Philadelphia, PA: Stanislaus Zbyszko defeats Wayne Munn for the catch-as-catch-can world title

Anyway, I'm up to something different. Maybe Zbyszko never really won the title from Americus, because the latter hadn't been the champion any more. There seems to have been a man who beat Schoenlein shortly before the Polish athlete did:

quote:
Originally posted by Steve Yohe on 04-26-2003 in the thread "Jess Westegaard":
To confuse things more, Americus (Gus Schoenlein) also claimed that Gotch gave him the American title & he lost April 23, 1914 to Pat Connolly at Vancouver via UTC & Connolly claimed title. Jack Curley managed Americus.

When exactly did he state this? Did this match really happen the way described? If not, then this is probably a story made up by Americus (and Gotch) to take away the credibility from Zbyszko as champion in 1914. If it did happen, however, then the world title initially passed on to Pat Connolly, not Stan Zbyszko. We know that Americus wasn't given the American title, but won the world title against Beell (we have the newspaper references). So that match in Vancouver was -if billed as such- a world title bout. Isn't it possible that Americus (and Gotch) wanted to keep this loss secret south of the border, which I think wasn't all too difficult at that time?! Americus then went back to the U.S. still claiming the title, yet two weeks later lost to Zbyszko in the U.S., where a concealment wasn't that easy. Eventually he stated to have been given the American title instead of the world title - just in case someone would bring up his loss to Connolly (or Zbyszko), so they could go on with Cutler claiming the title and completely ignore the initial Americus/Beell to Connolly/Zbyszko line. These are merely my thoughts, but it sounds pretty plausible, doesn't it?!

quote:
Originally posted by Old Fall Guy on 05-13-2008 in the thread "Dr. Roller Claims Title":
Vancouver BC: July 24, 1914
Pat Connolly beat Dr. B.F. Roller (2-1) … NOTE: Connolly claimed to be defending the "world" championship.

This indicates that Americus/Connolly was indeed billed as for the world title. Thus Connolly was perhaps the legitimate, yet kind of ousted world champion of that time.
I certainly don't want to create a "Canadian world title line", as the original one "officially" went on to Stecher etc., but it would nonetheless be interesting to know how long Connolly claimed it and when he ceased doing so, i.e. to whom he lost (and if this man in turn claimed the title, though I assume it all pretty soon went into oblivion on both sides of the border).

What we need to clarify this are the original accounts of
1. the Americus/Connolly bout - to see whether it was billed as a title match in the papers before and afterwards, which it probably was (otherwise Connolly wouldn't have defended the title against Roller)
2. Connolly afterwards claiming the title - e.g. matches of his announced as being for the world title until he loses and/or it's all forgotten
3. the Americus/Zbyszko bout - to see whether it was billed as a title match (which I don't think it was, considering the above arguments)

I couldn't find anything online (Connolly isn't the most talked-about person) and I need your help, guys. Is this of interest to someone other than me? Do you have these accounts?

Thanks for any input.

[ 05-02-2009, 07:47 AM: Message edited by: Mark Madison ]
 
Posted by Ken Viewer (Member # 5528) on :
 
Mark,

Here are a couple of photos of apparent-champion Pat Connolly; for this first photo, the date range is given as 1910-1915. (I have doubts on the dating.)

Ken

 -

.

This one was taken in Chicago in 1907.

 -

[ 05-02-2009, 11:06 PM: Message edited by: Ken Viewer ]
 


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