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Author Topic: 2017 WON Ballot
Steve Yohe
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You would have to explain some of those picks, or they wouldn't stay on the ballot or even get put on by Dave. The Australians I know of but most of the non-wrestlers need to be fleshed out. It's a lot of people to being pushing too.--Yohe
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Matt Farmer from WA
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Interesting list. There some strong arguments there for sure.

After reading some of the great work done by Phil Lions, another name that should be in is Dan Koloff (Kolov).

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Wrestling Perspective
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quote:
Originally posted by Steve Yohe:
Ok your not voting for Mr Wrestling I, Your voting for Johnny Walker. You have to vote for his whole career, not just the part after he put on a mask. I saw Walker in 1962, he didn't do enough for me to move him to the top of my list or put him in the top 10 of that list.---Steve Yohe

Let's say there was no Johnny Walker, just the Wrestling II phase and done. Would you look upon him more or less favorably when ranking for the HOF?

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The Masked Knight
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt Farmer from WA:
I shared this before for previous year Hall of Fame selections. It's a comparison between candidates of who drew the most number of large houses (10k plus). This is not necessary an indication of who was the biggest draw, just a tool to use and at times an eye opening to certain candidates.

I'm going to limit it to a top ten for each category.

Historical
1) Pedro Morales (more than double of number 2)
2) George Steele
3) Blackjack Mulligan
4) Cowboy Bob Ellis
5) Pepper Gomez
6) Enrique Torres
7) John Tolos
8) Rocky Johnson
9) Bearcat Wright
10) Mr. Wrestling II

Modern
1) Randy Orton (again double number 2)
2) Edge
3) CM Punk
4) Bill Goldberg
5) Sgt. Slaughter
6) Ultimate Warrior
7) Junkyard Dog
8) Curt Hennig
9) Kerry Von Erich
10) AJ Styles

Japan (big drop off after number 6)
1) Yuji Nagata
2) Jun Akiyama
3) Akira Taue
4) Kiyoshi Tamura
5) Yoshiaki Fujiwara
6) Minoru Suzuki
7) Tetsuya Naito
8) Hayabusa
9) Kota Ibushi
10) CIMA

Mexico
1) Villano III
2) Mistico
3) Cien Caras
4) Ultimo Guerrero
5) Dr. Wagner Jr
6) Sangre Chicana
7) LA Park
8) Blue Panther
9) Vampiro
10) Huracan Ramirez

Some of the older Luchadores, like Huracan Ramirez and Sangre Chicana I would assume should be higher than placed.

so based on that list are you going to vote for Pedro Morales, Randy Orton, Yuji Nagata and Villano III?

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Matt Farmer from WA
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I did vote for three of them. Pedro Morales, Randy Orton and Villano III. I didn't vote Nagata.

Before I compiled this list I had already circled those three names, and also voted for those three last year. I've been a big proponent of what I feel are under represented Mexico. Along with Villano III, also voted for the team of Los Misioneros de la Muerte, Huracan Ramirez, Cien Caras and Karloff Lagarde.

I've been pushing for those guys for a number of years now and even got Lagarde and Caras on the ballot.

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The Masked Knight
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You might have voted for Nagata purely because he's one of the four (Tim Woods, Don Owen and Curt Hennig) who are due to be dropped from the ballot this year if they don't get 50%

[ 10-24-2017, 09:05 PM: Message edited by: The Masked Knight ]

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Steve Ogilvie
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quote:
Originally posted by Steve Yohe:
You would have to explain some of those picks, or they wouldn't stay on the ballot or even get put on by Dave. The Australians I know of but most of the non-wrestlers need to be fleshed out. It's a lot of people to being pushing too.--Yohe

The only Australian among my nominees is Ray Hunter.

If people don't know who Joint Promotions are that's worrying.

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OSJ from NM by way of WA
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quote:
Originally posted by Phil_Lions:
quote:
Originally posted by OSJ from NM by way of WA:

And the biggest problem? In some areas it's being corrected (props to the Aussie Posse), but we don't yet have a Yohe of Europe, doing meticulous research on the history of the sport. Well, maybe we do and we just haven't made contact with him, for all I know maybe there's a guy in San Marino who has detailed match listings for over a dozen countries and estimated box office for big events. However, until such a person comes forward we have to contend with a huge area where we know wrestling was extremely popular that just has huge gaps in its known history.

There is some information out there if you know where to look for it, but in my opinion in general European stars are a tough bunch to make a case for, because of how different the scene was there. It was all about selling out smaller arenas night after night as opposed to running big events in big arenas. With such a business model it's hard to point the finger at a certain wrestler and show definitive proof that he was a major draw. And what makes it even harder is that a lot of the time the European press did not mention concrete numbers when talking about the attendance of the shows.

There's no better example of this than the Central European tournaments. There are reports claiming certain tournaments have sold, for example, 60,000+ tickets over the course of 4 weeks of shows. That's daily shows, night after night in the same arena, packing 2,000+ each night. To me that's super impressive, but how do you go about proving that such and such was the draw? It's hard. You can tell by the newspaper reports who the most popular guys were, but still there are no huge events to point to and use this as proof that guy #1 was a way bigger draw than guy #2.

Continental Europe in general is just very overlooked when it comes to the WON HOF. And understandably so as the European information is not as readily available as the information for other regions is. And even based on the info that is available it's still hard to make a genuine case for most European stars because of what I was discussing above. For me personally especially some of the earlier European stars like Paul Pons, Jaan Jaago, Ivan Poddubny, Jess Pedersen, etc. are no-brainers, but it's tough to make a case for them because of the way the European scene was set up back then and the way it was covered in the press.

P.S. I'm not a WON voter or a subscriber so I don't have a horse in this race, so to speak, but I just thought I'd chime in with my own two cents since Europe is one of my main areas of research.

Phil:

I should have responded much earlier, but this damn cold has slowed me down. ;-( The WON HOF needs guys like you voting, I'm sure Dave would send you a ballot if you asked. You're an invaluable resource on European wrestling and you'd be the first guy that I'd go to with questions. Oh, hey, here's one:
In the tournament that you mention, I am assuming that it was sell-out night after night with no blips to indicate the popularity of participants? That's the kind of thing that makes it really tough to ascertain a wrestler's drawing power.

If WWE kept track during the Mae Young Classic (and I'm assuming that they didn't, because, you know, WWE...) we would have found pretty extreme blips based on who was wrestling on a given show.

[ 10-25-2017, 09:37 AM: Message edited by: OSJ from NM by way of WA ]

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"What you say sounds reasonable enough," said the man, "but I refuse to be bribed. I am here to whip people, and whip them I shall!")
-Franz Kafka - The Trial

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Phil_Lions
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quote:
Originally posted by OSJ from NM by way of WA:

In the tournament that you mention, I am assuming that it was sell-out night after night with no blips to indicate the popularity of participants? That's the kind of thing that makes it really tough to ascertain a wrestler's drawing power.

If WWE kept track during the Mae Young Classic (and I'm assuming that they didn't, because, you know, WWE...) we would have found pretty extreme blips based on who was wrestling on a given show.

Unfortunately, in most cases the reports about the tournaments don't mention much about the attendance beyond "last night the arena was packed", if even that. Attendance just wasn't reported on as much as in other places. Very rarely do you see actual numbers in the press when it comes to the tournaments. And then every once in a while you'd come across a claim about the total attendance a tournament has drawn (like the example I was using earlier). If you go through the newspaper reports you can get a sense of who the most popular guys were during the tournament, but you can't really show any concrete numbers and proof that they were indeed the draws. And therein lies the problem. I can tell you that a certain European wrestler was a major star, but it's hard for me to prove it to you like you can with the North American or Japanese stars where you have all these big arena events to use as examples of drawing power.

There's not a whole lot of European territories where the promoters ran big events in big venues (i.e. 10,000+) on a consistent basis. It was all about shows in smaller and mid-sized venues and when you're dealing with such a business model, plus the lack of reported numbers, it's much harder to come up with examples that so and so was a major draw in order to convince people that was the case.

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OSJ from NM by way of WA
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quote:
Originally posted by Phil_Lions:
quote:
Originally posted by OSJ from NM by way of WA:

In the tournament that you mention, I am assuming that it was sell-out night after night with no blips to indicate the popularity of participants? That's the kind of thing that makes it really tough to ascertain a wrestler's drawing power.

If WWE kept track during the Mae Young Classic (and I'm assuming that they didn't, because, you know, WWE...) we would have found pretty extreme blips based on who was wrestling on a given show.

Unfortunately, in most cases the reports about the tournaments don't mention much about the attendance beyond "last night the arena was packed", if even that. Attendance just wasn't reported on as much as in other places. Very rarely do you see actual numbers in the press when it comes to the tournaments. And then every once in a while you'd come across a claim about the total attendance a tournament has drawn (like the example I was using earlier). If you go through the newspaper reports you can get a sense of who the most popular guys were during the tournament, but you can't really show any concrete numbers and proof that they were indeed the draws. And therein lies the problem. I can tell you that a certain European wrestler was a major star, but it's hard for me to prove it to you like you can with the North American or Japanese stars where you have all these big arena events to use as examples of drawing power.

There's not a whole lot of European territories where the promoters ran big events in big venues (i.e. 10,000+) on a consistent basis. It was all about shows in smaller and mid-sized venues and when you're dealing with such a business model, plus the lack of reported numbers, it's much harder to come up with examples that so and so was a major draw in order to convince people that was the case.

I think you've highlighted a very powerful tool that probably doesn't get as much use as it should: "going through newspaper reports". In baseball research, we have these yardsticks of "gray ink" and "black ink", which are pretty much the result of just that, going through newspaper and newsreels to get a sense of how a player was regarded by his contemporaries. It was particularly worthwhile in weeding out some of the real old timers who were making fantastic claims about themselves or friends of theirs from the late 19th- early 20th Centuries. If Joe Oldtimer claimed Bob Boughtmeadrink was the greatest shortstop who ever played yet there are no mentions of him whatsoever in the press covering his teams, one has to assume that Joe Oldtimer is babbling through his hat.

On the other hand, take a player who died relatively young and has no one beating the drum for them so to speak and you find reams of clippings lauding how great they were, it may well mean that a much closer look is in order.

I, for one would love to see some of your research that points to HOF-worthinesss for someone not given current consideration on the ballot. BTW: Dave is very receptive to learning new stuff, it's what he does. ;-)

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"What you say sounds reasonable enough," said the man, "but I refuse to be bribed. I am here to whip people, and whip them I shall!")
-Franz Kafka - The Trial

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Steve Ogilvie
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Yes, i'd like to see Phil join in on the ballot as well.

With Europe (including UK), i'm looking at things like consistency, how people were booked across their career, where they were featured, how the papers wrote about them. In addition, any references or opinions from their peers, people who saw them, people who were trained with them etc.

I agree the criteria is different, but that's a good thing. If it's to be a worldwide hall of fame, it needs to include wrestling worldwide, as it was for many years something that was a worldwide phenomenon.

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"Mr 100%"

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The Masked Knight
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Also why don't Shane McMahon and Stephanie McMahon even get nominated in the non-wrestler category? Is it McMahon family bias?

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Matt Farmer from WA
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I'm sure Shane and Stephanie will get put on the ballot soon. How could it be a family bias when both Sr and Jr are in, and Dave put them in.

As for guys dropping off due to the percentage. I'm fine with those guys dropping off. They didn't get enough support so they probably won't get in unless something changes. And we've seen examples of guys coming back and getting enough votes.

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The Masked Knight
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But if there is no McMahon bias, how come Jess McMahon-- VJM's father and VKM's grandfather and the man who made pro wrestling in New York City and was the matchmaker at MSG for decades-- not in?

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OSJ from NM by way of WA
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That's really a Dave question, as I can't see too many modern voters getting excited about Jess McMahon. Despite your hyperbole, he wasn't by any stretch of the imagination "the man who made pro wrestling in NY". Was he a very important historical figure? You bet your sweet bippy he was. Has anyone really done the research and made a compelling argument for his induction? I know I haven't, I'm pretty sure Yohe and Matt haven't either... This could be your golden opportunity!

Here's a hint (or two): Facts, facts, and more facts. The more that you can write about an individual without using any superlative adjectives, the better.

Check those facts. Dave will.

Show don't tell. "The NY press considered him the greatest promoter in the world!" = BAD
"Damon Runyon, Joe Drinkmylunch, and Eddie Latedeadline all wrote columns extolling the virtues of McMahon's matchmaking savvy." = GOOD
Cites of specific columns. = EVEN BETTER

Do not throw in unsubstantiated bull-puckey that you think bolsters your argument. You WILL get caught and it won't be pretty. Someone, (I think it may have been Drew) posted some nonsense about Hayabusa headlining cards of over 50,000 attendees multiple times. I'm an old FMW mark, so I knew that was ******** the second I saw it, but while I was busy typing a response that would have blistered the poor kid's eyeballs, Matt already called him on it.

Go ahead and show warts and all, you might well be able to quash an argument against your man before it starts by having your facts together. Example (real life one by the way) "Mr. Pelan, you've never sold more than 40,000 copies of any book you've written or edited, does that make you a failure?"
My response? "No, the publishers have never seen fit to print more than 40,000 copies and oddly enough, when they sell all of them they fuss that they only sold 40,000 like it was my fault. Sorry guys, I didn't place the print order, you did."

My buddy, Yohe keeps hitting a brick wall on Orville Brown (who I also think ought to be in), the main knock is too much time in one territory. Well, hell's bells, the man owned the territory what was he supposed to do, let his business go ****-all and take a monthly gig for a competitor? That's just silly. But if you don't know the backstory, you might very well view Brown as a regional guy only.

Jess McMahon is a fascinating individual for a lot of reasons. I don't know that he's a HOFr, write up something, convince me, convince the other voters, give Dave something to think about.

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"What you say sounds reasonable enough," said the man, "but I refuse to be bribed. I am here to whip people, and whip them I shall!")
-Franz Kafka - The Trial

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Steve Ogilvie
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Knight:
But if there is no McMahon bias, how come Jess McMahon-- VJM's father and VKM's grandfather and the man who made pro wrestling in New York City and was the matchmaker at MSG for decades-- not in?

How did he "make" wrestling in New York City?

There were plenty of major wrestling shows before he got involved.

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Steve Yohe
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Jess, if I remember right, was a boxing guy & promoted negro baseball. He was the boxing matchmaker in MSG. His wrestling cards were minor. Bill Johnson was the promoter of MSG when it reopened to wrestling in December 1949. ---Yohe
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Steve Yohe
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The major promoters get cheated in all the HOF, mainly because they are listed with managers. But the Observer has done the best job of getting them in. Tim, JMK, me & other have pushed to get them in, but you can only get one a year. I think we have gotten Curley, Packs, Fabiani, Shire, Quin & Bowser. The WON has more of the majors than anyone else. I think Lou Daro should go in.--Yohe

[ 11-14-2017, 12:23 AM: Message edited by: Steve Yohe ]

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Steve Yohe
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I don't think Jack Pfefer is in the HOF. It may be because I've been very negative about him in the past. Anyone think there's a wrong being made with that?

Dick Shikat isn't in the HOF & I've been against him because of the O'Mahoney doublecross in 1935 & the disruption of pro wrestling as a national sport. Putting it into a dark age for 10 years. Is that an injustice to Shikat?

Any ideas? Have I been wrong.---Steve Yohe

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Crimson Mask from FL
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Max Jacobs did the research on Jess McMahon. It's in his Milo and the Halitosis Kid paper, which is a far more credible piece of work than the famous Buddy Rogers paper.

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Steve Yohe
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Shane and Stephanie careers are going to jump into over drive as soon as Vince JR dies. Lets wait on them to see their future and see what happens when they run things on their own. As is....I would describe Stephanie as more of a booker than anything else...as least so far. (They are in ring performers, should they be listed as announcers?.) That's how you can describe him as long as Vince is around. Shane...I don't know what he does. Talking with Jim Ross, he told me that Shane was going to run things if Vince poops out...and he seemed sure of it.

How many pure bookers have been put in the HOF? I think George Scott is on the ballet as a booker...are any "just bookers" guys in yet? Bobby Bruns was a great booker in St Louis & the mid-west & the first Japanese cards....do you think that will get him in? Most everyone is a owner & they had bookers running things. Jules Strongbow was never a owner, but he ran Los Angeles from 1957 to around 1970. A booker?? More trainers & announcers are in, than bookers.---Steve Yohe

[ 11-14-2017, 10:49 PM: Message edited by: Steve Yohe ]

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Matt Farmer from WA
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I'm not sure Jess McMahon is a Hall of Fame worthy promoter. The big New York business was usually under the helm of another promoter.

He definitely did not make wrestling in New York City.

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Matt Farmer from WA
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Class of 2017 is confirmed with 5 new inductees.

They are.

Mark Lewin
Ben & Mike Sharpe
Pedro Morales
AJ Styles
Minoru Suzuki

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OSJ from NM by way of WA
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt Farmer from WA:
Class of 2017 is confirmed with 5 new inductees.

They are.

Mark Lewin
Ben & Mike Sharpe
Pedro Morales
AJ Styles
Minoru Suzuki

As per the usual, the luchadores got dicked. At least we finally got Lewin in.

I actually have no problem with any of the inductees, sad to see none of my historical picks made it, but maybe next year

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"What you say sounds reasonable enough," said the man, "but I refuse to be bribed. I am here to whip people, and whip them I shall!")
-Franz Kafka - The Trial

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Matt Farmer from WA
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I'm happy with the picks. Sure there were some I would have liked to have seen, but overall some good choices were made.
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Crimson Mask from FL
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I actually voted for half of them..

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OSJ from NM by way of WA
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Well, I did vote for Villano III, Largarde, and Cien Caras. Of course, I did my annual support for Blue Panther too.

And while I don't think that Mark Lewin necessarily belongs in the Oz grouping, I'm just pleased that we got him in.

My historical picks got slaughtered, maybe Yohe and I are the only people that care about Enrique Torres...

For moderns, the only two I can see are Randy Orton and A.J., figured they didn't need my help and at least I was right in that case.

I also dropped three Brits off my ballot (none of whom are in any danger of being dropped,) However, they're totals seemed pretty low considering how well they were known to the general public: "Rollerball" Rocco, Kendo Nagasaki, and Johnny Saint.

Maybe the thing to do is start pimping these guys on the WON forums, say, maybe in October...

Lastly, is anyone else embarrassed that the best wrestler of our lifetimes got dropped unceremoniously for not being able sustain the the necessary percentages?

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"What you say sounds reasonable enough," said the man, "but I refuse to be bribed. I am here to whip people, and whip them I shall!")
-Franz Kafka - The Trial

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Matt Farmer from WA
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OSJ, I too voted for Enrique Torres.
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Steve Yohe
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So Dave writes up the Sharpe brothers and mentions Leo Nomellini & Rikidozan...and doesn't say anything about Enrique Torres, who wrestled them thru out the 1950's. In Dave's write up of Torres in a early issue of the WON this year, he doesn't write up Torres' stay in St Louis & how he was the top contender to Thesz & had victories over Bill Longson. Torres pedigree as a wrestler & star made him a draw all over the mid-west & in the south while being the 2nd biggest star in Lou Thesz's promotion. This was a Mexican that was over with every race. Torres started in July 1946, which is years before anyone on the ballot (his strong period really takes place in the 40's & no one from that period has ever been voted into the WON HOF.) and 16 months before Gorgeous George arrived in LA & was present in the beginning of TV & the revival of wrestling. This is considered one of the great periods in wrestling history. He probably wrestled George more that any heavyweight, and beat him every time. In building the myth, they have left Torres out, who was the world champion thru it all. He also beat a no brained HOF'er Danny McShain, many many times & the Duseks. He had title unification matches with Frank Sexton and Lou Thesz in LA. He then put over Antonino Rocca & later got a draw. He then put over the next great LA star in Baron Leone...and that created a series of major matches. He was the Pacific Coast champion for most of the 1950's in San Francisco. In the World tournament in Japan, Rikidozan refused to beat Torres, because he respected him so much, and Enrique Torres was allowed to tag team with him. He was never beaten in MSG. He was a family guy who radiated class, something we rarely see in wrestling any more. He has gotten 36% the last two years. He was never a booker, front office worker or a owner. He had no other power than his ability in the ring.

Seems I print this every year & goes nowhere with the voters.

Chavo Guerrero SR got 12%. I think the worst thing he did was appear on WWE TV with his son. Wrestling for the WWE past your prime also put a drag on Morales & Backlund.

A lot of non--wrestlers finish high on the list. I think they get too many votes & more names should be added.

Dave couldn't find a historical pick from all of wrestling history? He seems to be out of ideas. He has Greg Oliver, Tim Hornbaker, Steve Johnson, Matt Farmer, Stern, Koji Miyamoto, Pat Laprade, & me & others....who if put together, could create a list of candidates....and he could pick a name each year from that. All he has to do is ask.

The light weight guys are weak in the hall...how about Jack Reynolds? And there always is Lou Daro, Joe Malcewicz, Dick Shikat, Johnny Doyle, Maurice Tillet, Danno Mahoney, etc. And ORVILLE BROWN, the first NW Alliance World Champion.

Looking at the candidate list, other than lucha names, I'm not all that excited about it. Dave shouldn't have been in such a hurry to remove people.

Ok....Sputnik Monroe....really?

As far as this years group is concerned...it's Ok with me. Probably the right picks.---Steve Yohe

[ 12-07-2017, 03:03 AM: Message edited by: Steve Yohe ]

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diamondmd
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No Roy Welch either? Given the reach and influence the Welch Family had from the 30s to the 80s that unbelievable.

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Steve Ogilvie
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I also voted for Torres.

I'm also disappointed in the lack of any historical additions. In an audio broadcast from this week Dave said he won't add anyone to the ballot from Steve Casey's era, so that negates any people prior to about 1950. He said "somebody" needs to write up an essay on the individual, then he "and some close people" will take a look at it. I don't think he realises how many strong candidates that includes. How long does the essay have to be? Who are the people that examine the essay? Isn't the whole point of putting people on the ballot to encourage an in depth look at their career?

Seems completely arbitrary to me. Meanwhile Kenny Omega gets added to the ballot next year.

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OSJ from NM by way of WA
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Gentlemen:

I have an idea. Based on what I'm reading here, it seems that of those of us with ballots our heads and hearts are in the right places and that we're quite capable of playing well with others for a greater good. I was concerned that perhaps we were fragmented among ourselves and had a dozen guys all backing different pet projects, a recipe for disaster and pretty much a guarantee that no one would get in.

There are always going to be nor differences, but the problem isn't that we're not pushing the right guys at the same time, it's that there aren't enough of us to make a difference. We're not going to get more votes, but we have something else that we haven't been utilizing to its fullest... Guys, people pay attention to what you write. They may not say so, but they do...

So let's take four guys that we're all comfortable with as HOFrs, how about: Enrique Torres, Cien Caras, Johnny Saint, & Bearcat Wright. The vast majority of WON HOF voters aren't found here, they're at the WON boards.

What I suggest we do is this: Whenever the WON HOF gets mentioned, comment ad bring up these guys and shift the discussion to their qualifications. We start this around June and I guarantee we'll see some results!

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"What you say sounds reasonable enough," said the man, "but I refuse to be bribed. I am here to whip people, and whip them I shall!")
-Franz Kafka - The Trial

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Steve Yohe
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Omega seems to me to have his whole career a head of him. Just seems too soon to put him in the HOF.--Yohe
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OSJ from NM by way of WA
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Hard to imagine he's already got fifteen years in. The only reason I could see to put him in right away is to troll Cornette, and believe me, the rant would be epic... ;-)

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"What you say sounds reasonable enough," said the man, "but I refuse to be bribed. I am here to whip people, and whip them I shall!")
-Franz Kafka - The Trial

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BERT from NJ
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Another reason why 15 years should become 25.

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"Kneel before Zod"
General Zod

"You're a little out of order yourself-You insulted him a little bit, you insulted him A LITTLE BIT"
Jimmy the Gent Conway

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”
Edmund Burke

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OSJ from NM by way of WA
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Bert: I think you hit on exactly the right number. I was thinking about this after watching Tyler Bate in a match. The kid is 19 and has already been the UK champion. In fifteen years (barring horrendous injuries) he'll be in his prime at 34 years of age and that's when he becomes eligible for the HOF? Makes little sense. You figure a wrestler starts at 18 (I know there are exceptions to this, especially in the UK, but we need a logical starting point and 18 seems right).

Okay, barring injuries with modern conditioning and medicine there's no reason a performer can't work until 55 (again, I know there are a lot of exceptions, but I see guys at 55 wrestling like they're in their thirties. Older than that it usually starts to show and it's not pretty, (did anyone really enjoy 60 year-old Ed Farhat limping around the ring and throwing fireballs, or Abdullah the Butcher at the same age just grabbing a guy and cut him up with a set of cheap silverware because that's really all he can do with his weight ballooning out of control and age and injuries catching up to him. Hell, starting at 18 puts a guy in his prime at 43 (wrestlers seem to hit their peak ten years later than guys in other sports). So 25 years means we will likely have seen all we need to in order to determine eligibility. There's probably not a lot that a guy's going to do in their twilight years to change how people view them.
My wife actually suggested this and it's worth thinking about; how about an aging luchadore who goes on a grand tour with his mask on the line in every match. To help things along someone in the office calls Meltzer and lets it slip that the guy is definitely losing his mask on this tour. You can't tell me that this might not be what puts a guy over the top as far as being a draw goes. Of course, to sell that many tickets the guy would have to have been a pretty big deal in the first place... I dunno, maybe 35 years should be the number...

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"What you say sounds reasonable enough," said the man, "but I refuse to be bribed. I am here to whip people, and whip them I shall!")
-Franz Kafka - The Trial

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