WrestlingClassics.com Message Board Post New Topic  New Poll  Post A Reply
my profile | directory login | register | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» WrestlingClassics.com Message Board » Professional Wrestling & General Discussion 2010 - Current » Magic Johnson alternate universe (Page 1)

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!   This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2   
Author Topic: Magic Johnson alternate universe
A Gene Wilder Somersault
Member
Member # 128207

Icon 1 posted      Profile for A Gene Wilder Somersault     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
How is NBA history affected if Magic Johnson never contracts HIV? Do the Lakers win more championships? Do the Bulls win fewer? Does Magic go down in history as the greatest of all time instead of Jordan?
IP: Logged
Gabba Hey
Member
Member # 20936

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Gabba Hey     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Don't really think it effects anything. There was a time I was convinced Magic was better than Jordan. I couldn't have been more wrong. Magic is a top 10 player all time. But Jordan is the greatest ever.

--------------------
Im your huckleberry - Tombstone -- Sometimes to beat the bully. you have to be the bully. Michael Jordan. vs the Pistons

IP: Logged
King Francis
Member
Member # 24068

Icon 1 posted      Profile for King Francis     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
wilt

--------------------
When I said that was the most ignorant thing I ever heard, I didn't realize you were still talking.

IP: Logged
The Midnight Lurker
Member
Member # 1084

Icon 1 posted      Profile for The Midnight Lurker     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Magic was about 33 years old when he was diagnosed with HIV and his Lakers team had ended the previous season by losing in the Finals to the Bulls by a 4-1 margin. Obviously, his counting stats continue to grow but I think the Bulls still win another two titles before Jordan's first retirement.
IP: Logged
BOSSBADDCO
Member
Member # 844

Icon 1 posted      Profile for BOSSBADDCO     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The Big O
IP: Logged
REO Speeddealer
Member
Member # 1534

Icon 1 posted      Profile for REO Speeddealer     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'm not convinced they overtake Phoenix or Houston even if Magic continued to play, much less beat Chicago.
IP: Logged
A Gene Wilder Somersault
Member
Member # 128207

Icon 1 posted      Profile for A Gene Wilder Somersault     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Midnight Lurker:
Magic was about 33 years old when he was diagnosed with HIV and his Lakers team had ended the previous season by losing in the Finals to the Bulls by a 4-1 margin. Obviously, his counting stats continue to grow but I think the Bulls still win another two titles before Jordan's first retirement.

For the record, he turned 32 right before the 91-92 season began.
IP: Logged
Curt Injurker
Member
Member # 6203

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Curt Injurker     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Two things make this a VERY difficult question to even speculate on.

1) Post-Kareem Magic was an entirely different animal. Improved jumper, looked to score more, refined post game, facilitated the offense from the post. If not for the illness, Magic might have revolutionized the game (again) by running the half court offense from the low block years before Don Nelson turned Anthony Mason into a Point Forward. I mean, when considering Magic's work ethic and talent, it's not hard to see him improving his jumper (a la Jason Kidd) late in his career, getting even better in the low block, and upping his usage rate. We might not have even seen Magic's ceiling (and how scary is that?).

2) The Magic-Era Lakers were the best run basketball franchise I've ever seen (yep, even better than the current Spurs. How does a team with Kareem get Magic and Worthy with #1 overall picks within three years of eachother??????).

That said, when speculating how they match up with Drexler's Blazers, Barkley's Suns,Jordan's Bulls, Ewing's Knicks et. al., the natural impulse is to project Magic on to the roster that they went with (Aging Worthy and Green, young Vlade and Elden, more of Threatt at the 1 when Magic plays forward, etc).

However, that was the Lakers in rebuild mode. If Magic was still playing, doesn't the rest of the roster look different too? They're definitely in the running for Barkley when he becomes available. Do they try to get Hornacek or Richmond to replace a slowed Byron Scott? Do they take a flyer on Bernard King? I have to believe Jerry West would give Magic more support than what the 91-95 Lakers eventually looked like.

--This is all to say that, while Michael Jordan and the Bulls were great, Magic was Magic. 12 Seasons in the league resulted in 9 Finals appearances and 5 Championships. Assuming Jordan/Bulls roll over Magic and the Lakers Organization is a pretty big assumption to make.

IP: Logged
Pbhero
Member
Member # 81542

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Pbhero     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Battles with the Suns would have been great.

Houston was so stacked with veterans...I doubt they could have built that team with a big player like Magic still around.


LeBron is the greatest, imo.

Just watching him play...he dominates...in all facets...almost un-guardable....passes, shoots, drives, play-maker, blocks, boards, leader....the total package...with hardware to prove it...and no real injuries.

IP: Logged
A Gene Wilder Somersault
Member
Member # 128207

Icon 9 posted      Profile for A Gene Wilder Somersault     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Completely agree with Curt's post and I posted the question after re-watching a Finals game from 1991 where Magic had 20 assists and 20 something points while draining threes, running the fast break and dominating in the post in the half court game. The eye test made 1991 Magic every bit as unguardable as Jordan.

[ 03-15-2017, 10:13 AM: Message edited by: A Gene Wilder Somersault ]

IP: Logged
1000 Masks But No Jobs
Member
Member # 2102

Icon 1 posted      Profile for 1000 Masks But No Jobs     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Whether Magic played another five years or not, he was never going to supplant Jordan as the greatest player of his generation. So much of Jordan's iconic stature is because his teams went 6-0 in the NBA Finals.

That being said, I agree with King Francis about Wilt. I think there is recency bias at work with regard to Jordan and especially with Lebron James.

--------------------
Your back-to-back (2009 and 2010) Too Tall Cup Champion.

IP: Logged
Greg Ganja
Member
Member # 1677

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Greg Ganja     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Curt Injurker:
Two things make this a VERY difficult question to even speculate on.

1) Post-Kareem Magic was an entirely different animal. Improved jumper, looked to score more, refined post game, facilitated the offense from the post. If not for the illness, Magic might have revolutionized the game (again) by running the half court offense from the low block years before Don Nelson turned Anthony Mason into a Point Forward. I mean, when considering Magic's work ethic and talent, it's not hard to see him improving his jumper (a la Jason Kidd) late in his career, getting even better in the low block, and upping his usage rate. We might not have even seen Magic's ceiling (and how scary is that?).

2) The Magic-Era Lakers were the best run basketball franchise I've ever seen (yep, even better than the current Spurs. How does a team with Kareem get Magic and Worthy with #1 overall picks within three years of eachother??????).

That said, when speculating how they match up with Drexler's Blazers, Barkley's Suns,Jordan's Bulls, Ewing's Knicks et. al., the natural impulse is to project Magic on to the roster that they went with (Aging Worthy and Green, young Vlade and Elden, more of Threatt at the 1 when Magic plays forward, etc).

However, that was the Lakers in rebuild mode. If Magic was still playing, doesn't the rest of the roster look different too? They're definitely in the running for Barkley when he becomes available. Do they try to get Hornacek or Richmond to replace a slowed Byron Scott? Do they take a flyer on Bernard King? I have to believe Jerry West would give Magic more support than what the 91-95 Lakers eventually looked like.

--This is all to say that, while Michael Jordan and the Bulls were great, Magic was Magic. 12 Seasons in the league resulted in 9 Finals appearances and 5 Championships. Assuming Jordan/Bulls roll over Magic and the Lakers Organization is a pretty big assumption to make.

Great analysis.

As for the OP I never thought of this alternate reality. Very interesting. Magic made everyone better. If you were a 10 PPG on one team you could average 16 or 17 just hanging out with Magic. I think Vlade Divac would've developed a lot faster and an ultimately better player playing alongside Magic in the 90s.

--------------------
Your old lady's old lady has got skinnier legs!!!
---
And BABY DOLL...shame on you mama...cause I know you better than anyone!


IP: Logged
Tatsuya
Member
Member # 80195

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Tatsuya     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Agree it's hard to speculate because you don't know what personnel changes the Lakers would have made but one thing to keep in mind is that Riley was already gone before Magic retired and would have been interesting to see an extended run of Magic without Riley there.

As far as the greatest ever...eh, I no longer care too much...just too hard to compare eras. Even comparing today's era to Jordan's. I'll say this though, I would have loved to seen how LeBron would have handled the Detroit Bad Boys and even the Riley era Knicks

IP: Logged
Bnicholas
Member
Member # 23863

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Bnicholas     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Tatsuya:
Agree it's hard to speculate because you don't know what personnel changes the Lakers would have made but one thing to keep in mind is that Riley was already gone before Magic retired and would have been interesting to see an extended run of Magic without Riley there.

As far as the greatest ever...eh, I no longer care too much...just too hard to compare eras. Even comparing today's era to Jordan's. I'll say this though, I would have loved to seen how LeBron would have handled the Detroit Bad Boys and even the Riley era Knicks

And I would have loved to see Jordan play in today's era where superstar calls are much lessened.

Part of what tarnishes Jordan for me, and makes me lean LeBron if he continues strong for 4 or 5 more years is Jordan's return post baseball. Watching Michael BERATE refs for foul calls when replays clearly showed he wasn't even touched or watching the numerous pushoffs (Byron Russell can tell you all about them), really soured me on the majesty of pre-baseball Mike. Jordan was great. Arguably the best of all time. But man did that guy get away with murder with the refs.

Post ref scandal today's superstars simply don't get the amount of calls a superstar once did. And LeBron less than some others due to his strength and size making him somewhat less sympathetic and his "lack of selling" compared to some others (such as Wade or Westbrook or Harden).

But yes it's horribly difficult to compare players from different eras and even positions. How do you compare a 7 foot Wilt in the post in a league that was much shorter than him, played less D, and played faster? How do you commpare the run and gun days where guys ran up and down the court taking uncontested 18 footers versus the constant switching and focus on D today or the grab and clutch of the 90s?

IP: Logged
davephlegmball
Member
Member # 5163

Icon 1 posted      Profile for davephlegmball     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Could average 50 pts a game?

Could score 100 in a game?

Could lead the league in any category if challenged to do so?

Is Wilt?

Thought not.

IP: Logged
chgowolvs44
Member
Member # 2267

Icon 1 posted      Profile for chgowolvs44     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by davephlegmball:
Could average 50 pts a game?

Could score 100 in a game?

Could lead the league in any category if challenged to do so?

Is Wilt?

Thought not.

What I would give to see Jordan playing in either Wilt's or Lebron's eras.

He'd be one of taller, but most athletic player in Wilt's time, which means he'd score at will, and in the era where fouls are called when the popcorn vendor yells "play defense", Jordan would score even more now then he would in the Chamberlain days.

There is a reason he's the greatest of all time.

--------------------
"A spokesman for the NYPD said the police were exercising their right to defend themselves from charging protesters who...were armed with dangerous ideas" Keith Olbermann RE:NYPD over reaction to OWS protests

IP: Logged
chgowolvs44
Member
Member # 2267

Icon 1 posted      Profile for chgowolvs44     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Curt Injurker:
Two things make this a VERY difficult question to even speculate on.

1) Post-Kareem Magic was an entirely different animal. Improved jumper, looked to score more, refined post game, facilitated the offense from the post. If not for the illness, Magic might have revolutionized the game (again) by running the half court offense from the low block years before Don Nelson turned Anthony Mason into a Point Forward. I mean, when considering Magic's work ethic and talent, it's not hard to see him improving his jumper (a la Jason Kidd) late in his career, getting even better in the low block, and upping his usage rate. We might not have even seen Magic's ceiling (and how scary is that?).

2) The Magic-Era Lakers were the best run basketball franchise I've ever seen (yep, even better than the current Spurs. How does a team with Kareem get Magic and Worthy with #1 overall picks within three years of eachother??????).

That said, when speculating how they match up with Drexler's Blazers, Barkley's Suns,Jordan's Bulls, Ewing's Knicks et. al., the natural impulse is to project Magic on to the roster that they went with (Aging Worthy and Green, young Vlade and Elden, more of Threatt at the 1 when Magic plays forward, etc).

However, that was the Lakers in rebuild mode. If Magic was still playing, doesn't the rest of the roster look different too? They're definitely in the running for Barkley when he becomes available. Do they try to get Hornacek or Richmond to replace a slowed Byron Scott? Do they take a flyer on Bernard King? I have to believe Jerry West would give Magic more support than what the 91-95 Lakers eventually looked like.

--This is all to say that, while Michael Jordan and the Bulls were great, Magic was Magic. 12 Seasons in the league resulted in 9 Finals appearances and 5 Championships. Assuming Jordan/Bulls roll over Magic and the Lakers Organization is a pretty big assumption to make.

Even if Magic doesn't retire, Phoenix and Utah, just to name 2 of the other teams in the West, still get better. Meanwhile, the toughest opponent the Bulls have to deal with on an annual basis in that time frame is "Crumbs" Krause.

I can't really lessen the Bulls chances a whole hell of a lot.

--------------------
"A spokesman for the NYPD said the police were exercising their right to defend themselves from charging protesters who...were armed with dangerous ideas" Keith Olbermann RE:NYPD over reaction to OWS protests

IP: Logged
Curt Injurker
Member
Member # 6203

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Curt Injurker     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Does Phoenix get Barkley if the Lakers are in the running?

Who on the Jazz guards Magic in a seven game series? Bailey? Benoit?

Worthy's hamstring was shot, Scott got old overnight, Vlade and Eldon were kids, and Magic still beat a LOADED Blazer team in the WCF that was in the Finals the year before and the year after. It was a hell of a thing to beat Magic in a Playoff series. It only happened 7 times. And only twice when Moses, Larry, Michael, or Hakeem wasn't on the opposing side. Phoenix and Utah were great teams, but to say they would be too much for a team with Magic on it is a bit much.

IP: Logged
Bnicholas
Member
Member # 23863

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Bnicholas     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by chgowolvs44:
quote:
Originally posted by davephlegmball:
Could average 50 pts a game?

Could score 100 in a game?

Could lead the league in any category if challenged to do so?

Is Wilt?

Thought not.

What I would give to see Jordan playing in either Wilt's or Lebron's eras.

He'd be one of taller, but most athletic player in Wilt's time, which means he'd score at will, and in the era where fouls are called when the popcorn vendor yells "play defense", Jordan would score even more now then he would in the Chamberlain days.

There is a reason he's the greatest of all time.

If you don't think Jordan wasn't getting RIDICULOUS foul calls when he played, you weren't paying attention.
IP: Logged
chgowolvs44
Member
Member # 2267

Icon 1 posted      Profile for chgowolvs44     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The entire league gets them, now.

I do admire your restraint in not claiming Jordan beheaded Russell with a machete, before pushing off, though. You've got that going for you, at least. [Big Grin] [Wink] [Razz]

[ 03-15-2017, 04:40 PM: Message edited by: chgowolvs44 ]

--------------------
"A spokesman for the NYPD said the police were exercising their right to defend themselves from charging protesters who...were armed with dangerous ideas" Keith Olbermann RE:NYPD over reaction to OWS protests

IP: Logged
Herd72
Member
Member # 107695

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Herd72     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
An interesting story, I attended UNC grad school while Jordan was there and am a huge Jordan fan, that being said ... I heard an interview once with Bird and Magic post playing days where the announcer asked them who the greatest player ever was ... Their answer after some discussion was it is some guy no one ever heard of on an inner city playground or a farm lot that will never be "discovered" and go to college or the NBA. They both said they had played against guys in pick up games that beat them soundly. A very interesting perspective I thought.
IP: Logged
chgowolvs44
Member
Member # 2267

Icon 1 posted      Profile for chgowolvs44     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Curt Injurker:
Does Phoenix get Barkley if the Lakers are in the running?

The Sixers DID trade Chuck to the Lakers, first. They pulled the deal back, and THEN traded him to Phoenix.


Who on the Jazz guards Magic in a seven game series? Bailey? Benoit?

Don't know, don't care. The Bulls don't play any game 7's. Who is in better physical shape to play a tough finals series? The rested Bulls or the tired, and older, Lakers?

Worthy's hamstring was shot, Scott got old overnight, Vlade and Eldon were kids, and Magic still beat a LOADED Blazer team in the WCF that was in the Finals the year before and the year after. It was a hell of a thing to beat Magic in a Playoff series. It only happened 7 times. And only twice when Moses, Larry, Michael, or Hakeem wasn't on the opposing side. Phoenix and Utah were great teams, but to say they would be too much for a team with Magic on it is a bit much.

Magic is one of the all time greats. But father time is undefeated.

The Bulls go over the Lakers, just like they went over every other team they faced, once they got over the hump that were the Pistons.

No need to try to rewrite history.

--------------------
"A spokesman for the NYPD said the police were exercising their right to defend themselves from charging protesters who...were armed with dangerous ideas" Keith Olbermann RE:NYPD over reaction to OWS protests

IP: Logged
chgowolvs44
Member
Member # 2267

Icon 1 posted      Profile for chgowolvs44     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Herd72:
An interesting story, I attended UNC grad school while Jordan was there and am a huge Jordan fan, that being said ... I heard an interview once with Bird and Magic post playing days where the announcer asked them who the greatest player ever was ... Their answer after some discussion was it is some guy no one ever heard of on an inner city playground or a farm lot that will never be "discovered" and go to college or the NBA. They both said they had played against guys in pick up games that beat them soundly. A very interesting perspective I thought.

I've heard the "unknown Rucker Park type guy" thing before. It may be true, we'll never know.

The G.O.A.T., that we all know about, at least, is Michael Jordan.

--------------------
"A spokesman for the NYPD said the police were exercising their right to defend themselves from charging protesters who...were armed with dangerous ideas" Keith Olbermann RE:NYPD over reaction to OWS protests

IP: Logged
Big Daddy Meatybone
Member
Member # 708

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Big Daddy Meatybone   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
What amazes me is that the teams that win the NBA Championship without Jordan in the league during that time frame are not teams that Bulls ever faced in the finals. It's not like Jordan retires and the Suns and Jazz win the title. Many say that Bulls would still win but how great would it be to see a Jordan-led Bulls vs. Hakeem and the Rockets in a best of 7? Or Jordan and Pippen stay one more year and face Robinson, Duncan and the Spurs.

--------------------
~BIG DADDY MEATYBONE
_ _ _ _ _____ _ _ _ _

"If people fall asleep in front of the TV, it still counts as a rating point" ~ Dave Meltzer, 2009

"A draw is like kissing your sister" ~ Larry Nelson, 1987

IP: Logged
1000 Masks But No Jobs
Member
Member # 2102

Icon 1 posted      Profile for 1000 Masks But No Jobs     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Bnicholas:
quote:
Originally posted by Tatsuya:
Agree it's hard to speculate because you don't know what personnel changes the Lakers would have made but one thing to keep in mind is that Riley was already gone before Magic retired and would have been interesting to see an extended run of Magic without Riley there.

As far as the greatest ever...eh, I no longer care too much...just too hard to compare eras. Even comparing today's era to Jordan's. I'll say this though, I would have loved to seen how LeBron would have handled the Detroit Bad Boys and even the Riley era Knicks

How do you compare a 7 foot Wilt in the post in a league that was much shorter than him, played less D, and played faster? How do you commpare the run and gun days where guys ran up and down the court taking uncontested 18 footers versus the constant switching and focus on D today or the grab and clutch of the 90s?
The NBA did change the rules to try and limit Chamberlain's dominance. The league widened the lane four feet, banned offensive goaltendng, banned the practice of throwing the ball over the top of the backboard on inbounds plays, banned the practice of jumping from the free throw line and laying the ball in the basket on foul shots.

Jordan is no worse than second all-time (and the maybe the greatest of all time), IMO, but Chamberlain is right with his famous retort to Jordan at the 1997 NBA All-Star game luncheon:

“Just remember Michael, when I played, they changed the rules to make it harder for me and when you played they changed the rules to make the game easier for you”.

[ 03-15-2017, 05:37 PM: Message edited by: 1000 Masks But No Jobs ]

--------------------
Your back-to-back (2009 and 2010) Too Tall Cup Champion.

IP: Logged
Bnicholas
Member
Member # 23863

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Bnicholas     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by chgowolvs44:
The entire league gets them, now.

I do admire your restraint in not claiming Jordan beheaded Russell with a machete, before pushing off, though. You've got that going for you, at least. [Big Grin] [Wink] [Razz]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats.html

I suggest you look at the averages for personal fouls and FT attempts by year. You will notice that both were higher when Jordan played (and before that too) than now. I get that part of that is less post play and more threes, but to say that the league is "foul happy" now is simply not true.

IP: Logged
A Gene Wilder Somersault
Member
Member # 128207

Icon 1 posted      Profile for A Gene Wilder Somersault     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I think there is some revisionist history with the 90s Bulls where they are thought of as invincible. Let's not forget they were almost beaten in 92 by the Knicks and were about 10 minutes away from losing to Indiana in 98. They were definitely dominant, but not unbeatable. I think Magic and the Lakers with a more developed supporting cast gives the Bulls a tough series. Remember what happened in 85 also after Boston beat them in 84. Never underestimate the heart of a proven winner like Magic.
IP: Logged
merc
Member
Member # 125456

Icon 1 posted      Profile for merc     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
OK, I'm an NBA junkie. So rapid fire responses

Connie Hawkins was one of those playground legends that never translated to pro ball (ok, maybe ABA)

Don't slam Wilt cuz of height, otherwise we would all worship at the alter of Manute Bol. Ya need skill to go with it...never mind there were similar sized guys around.

11 rings are hard to forget...along with an Olympic gold and college titles. Somehow winning gets lost in "greatest" (unless we speak of football), so I always feel compelled to say Bill Russell won more than anyone else.

If I were starting a team though, Wilt would be my first draft pick. Offense, D or boards he was the best of his era.

You could take Jordan.

The next 6 would decide who wins titles.

I'd take Magic, LeBron, Russell, Akeem, Bird & Steph Curry.

Curry could easily be Ray Allen...in today's game you need the trey and Allen did it longer, but Curry shows greater range.

Akeem could be Jabbar, O'Neal or Robinson outside in when perimeter play is pressed. I like Akeem's rim protection.

IP: Logged
Herd72
Member
Member # 107695

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Herd72     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Another thing most don't know about Wilt is he was a world class track star and played pro volleyball. Can you imagine that guy spiking one at you? PS If the claims of 10,000 women in his book are true .... He had game!
IP: Logged
Herd72
Member
Member # 107695

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Herd72     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Connie Hawkins was amazing but we did not get to see him in his prime. He could place his hands on opposite sides of the ball and his fingertips touched!
IP: Logged
Greg Ganja
Member
Member # 1677

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Greg Ganja     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Big Daddy Meatybone:
Many say that Bulls would still win but how great would it be to see a Jordan-led Bulls vs. Hakeem and the Rockets in a best of 7?

While there's never been a playoff series between them-- Jordan is only 2 wins to 6 losses vs. Hakeem lifetime.

--------------------
Your old lady's old lady has got skinnier legs!!!
---
And BABY DOLL...shame on you mama...cause I know you better than anyone!


IP: Logged
paulsonj72
Member
Member # 58715

Icon 1 posted      Profile for paulsonj72     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Curt Injurker:
Two things make this a VERY difficult question to even speculate on.

1) Post-Kareem Magic was an entirely different animal. Improved jumper, looked to score more, refined post game, facilitated the offense from the post. If not for the illness, Magic might have revolutionized the game (again) by running the half court offense from the low block years before Don Nelson turned Anthony Mason into a Point Forward. I mean, when considering Magic's work ethic and talent, it's not hard to see him improving his jumper (a la Jason Kidd) late in his career, getting even better in the low block, and upping his usage rate. We might not have even seen Magic's ceiling (and how scary is that?).

2) The Magic-Era Lakers were the best run basketball franchise I've ever seen (yep, even better than the current Spurs. How does a team with Kareem get Magic and Worthy with #1 overall picks within three years of eachother??????).

That said, when speculating how they match up with Drexler's Blazers, Barkley's Suns,Jordan's Bulls, Ewing's Knicks et. al., the natural impulse is to project Magic on to the roster that they went with (Aging Worthy and Green, young Vlade and Elden, more of Threatt at the 1 when Magic plays forward, etc).

However, that was the Lakers in rebuild mode. If Magic was still playing, doesn't the rest of the roster look different too? They're definitely in the running for Barkley when he becomes available. Do they try to get Hornacek or Richmond to replace a slowed Byron Scott? Do they take a flyer on Bernard King? I have to believe Jerry West would give Magic more support than what the 91-95 Lakers eventually looked like.

--This is all to say that, while Michael Jordan and the Bulls were great, Magic was Magic. 12 Seasons in the league resulted in 9 Finals appearances and 5 Championships. Assuming Jordan/Bulls roll over Magic and the Lakers Organization is a pretty big assumption to make.

They got Magic(in part) due to NBA free agency compensation rules at the time. The Jazz signed GAil Goodrich and as compensation the Lakers got the 1st round draft pick of the Jazz in 1979. Since the Jazz had the worst record in the east they were involved in a coin flip with the Bulls for the #1 overall pick.(That's how the NBA did it before the lottery) The Lakers won the flip and got Magic with the #1 overall pick. To get Worthy the Lakers traded a couple of average players to Cleveland for the Cavs 1st round draft pick. Again the team they traded with had the worst record in the conference and again the Lakers won a coin flip (This time with San Diego(now LA Clippers) and chose Worthy with the #1 overall pick. Some shrewed front office moves are what got the Lakers Magic and Worthy.(and some lick)
IP: Logged
chgowolvs44
Member
Member # 2267

Icon 1 posted      Profile for chgowolvs44     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Bnicholas:
quote:
Originally posted by chgowolvs44:
The entire league gets them, now.

I do admire your restraint in not claiming Jordan beheaded Russell with a machete, before pushing off, though. You've got that going for you, at least. [Big Grin] [Wink] [Razz]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats.html

I suggest you look at the averages for personal fouls and FT attempts by year. You will notice that both were higher when Jordan played (and before that too) than now. I get that part of that is less post play and more threes, but to say that the league is "foul happy" now is simply not true.

I suggest you actually watch a game today, not just go to some website to find numbers to verify your perception bias.

All those calls Jordan would BERATE the refs over in his comeback? The 10th guy down the bench goes to the line today, not just superstars.

That was my point.

--------------------
"A spokesman for the NYPD said the police were exercising their right to defend themselves from charging protesters who...were armed with dangerous ideas" Keith Olbermann RE:NYPD over reaction to OWS protests

IP: Logged
chgowolvs44
Member
Member # 2267

Icon 1 posted      Profile for chgowolvs44     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by 1000 Masks But No Jobs:
quote:
Originally posted by Bnicholas:
quote:
Originally posted by Tatsuya:
Agree it's hard to speculate because you don't know what personnel changes the Lakers would have made but one thing to keep in mind is that Riley was already gone before Magic retired and would have been interesting to see an extended run of Magic without Riley there.

As far as the greatest ever...eh, I no longer care too much...just too hard to compare eras. Even comparing today's era to Jordan's. I'll say this though, I would have loved to seen how LeBron would have handled the Detroit Bad Boys and even the Riley era Knicks

How do you compare a 7 foot Wilt in the post in a league that was much shorter than him, played less D, and played faster? How do you commpare the run and gun days where guys ran up and down the court taking uncontested 18 footers versus the constant switching and focus on D today or the grab and clutch of the 90s?
The NBA did change the rules to try and limit Chamberlain's dominance. The league widened the lane four feet, banned offensive goaltendng, banned the practice of throwing the ball over the top of the backboard on inbounds plays, banned the practice of jumping from the free throw line and laying the ball in the basket on foul shots.

Jordan is no worse than second all-time (and the maybe the greatest of all time), IMO, but Chamberlain is right with his famous retort to Jordan at the 1997 NBA All-Star game luncheon:

“Just remember Michael, when I played, they changed the rules to make it harder for me and when you played they changed the rules to make the game easier for you”.

We're the rules different in Michael's era? Maybe. Did they change the rules to make it easier for Michael? Not hardly.

See the thing some fans forget, and even more great players forget, is the true greats would find a way to be great in any era.

LeBron, Curry, Jordan, Robertson, Magic, Bird, Wilt, and on and on. All time greats, and they would have been so in any era.

[ 03-16-2017, 04:29 AM: Message edited by: chgowolvs44 ]

--------------------
"A spokesman for the NYPD said the police were exercising their right to defend themselves from charging protesters who...were armed with dangerous ideas" Keith Olbermann RE:NYPD over reaction to OWS protests

IP: Logged
merc
Member
Member # 125456

Icon 1 posted      Profile for merc     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Rules change? Zone D is legal now biggest change since Jordan played. That has led to referees calling more phantom calls....I'm not sure why, but I have a theory.

It starts with floor spacing, 3 point arc opening up he game.

Then zone leaves players more flat footed.

Man D provides lots of bumps. Zone/switches have defenders moving thru space. It's a different look for the folks in gray and I think they began to anticipate. B A D for the game.

Players got used to those kinds of calls and adjusted their game to find the calls. Today, whistles blow on air compression...or offense initiated contact.

Exhibit A is Isiah Thomas (Celtics version). His hesitation and fade back nto the defender on drives causes body contact and should be a no call. But 7/10 times he goes to the line.

Jordan got body contact calls, but he was on a direct line,

Oscar got arm fouls, the body was incidental contact.

It's evolution (or the equivalent of devolution) of the game. To those that say players of the 60's & 70's don't compete today, I'd suggest the "break" today's players get on D is an equalizer. Could they adapt, sure but they aren't asked to.

IP: Logged
Steve Yohe
Member
Member # 302

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Steve Yohe     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
You should judge player by how they dominated in their time. If they all lived at the same time, like say today, they would all have the same drugs, training, coaching, medical treatment, and diet. Wilt today would be bigger, stronger and jump higher. Jordan in 1962 wouldn't be the same player.

All you have to judge is the era they played in...so you have to judge them by that.

The greatest player is Bill Russell. I started following the NBA in 1962, and in their time no one thought Wilt was better that Russell.

#2 would be Jabbar.

The 3 point basket changed everything too. It's not the same game anymore. The math is different. I don't know what you do about that.----Steve Yohe

IP: Logged
Bnicholas
Member
Member # 23863

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Bnicholas     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by chgowolvs44:
quote:
Originally posted by Bnicholas:
quote:
Originally posted by chgowolvs44:
The entire league gets them, now.

I do admire your restraint in not claiming Jordan beheaded Russell with a machete, before pushing off, though. You've got that going for you, at least. [Big Grin] [Wink] [Razz]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats.html

I suggest you look at the averages for personal fouls and FT attempts by year. You will notice that both were higher when Jordan played (and before that too) than now. I get that part of that is less post play and more threes, but to say that the league is "foul happy" now is simply not true.

I suggest you actually watch a game today, not just go to some website to find numbers to verify your perception bias.

All those calls Jordan would BERATE the refs over in his comeback? The 10th guy down the bench goes to the line today, not just superstars.

That was my point.

I watch a TON of basketball. I appreciate your Chicago bias but guys are not getting anymore calls now than in the past and the numbers show it. What has changed is the handchecking and off ball post play. Those were much rougher in the 90s. But your average drive to the hoop? Same call as always with the main difference being, as you noted, the name on the jersey not dictating who gets those calls as much.

As for Jordan berating officials, they were phantom calls. He was never touched. It's not like refs are calling that today either. Truth is Jordan was a petulant, obnoxious guy on the court. That is part of why he was so good. But it also tarnishes him to me. I just believe a player should that talented doesn't need to whine and abuse officials for non existent calls.

IP: Logged
Pbhero
Member
Member # 81542

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Pbhero     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Bird complained...LeBron complains...Barkley...Duncan....Robinson...Isiah Thomas...Magic...Kareem....Stockton....

Name one superstar that DOESN'T complain almost every time?

Probably another thread.

They all complain they were fouled...and complain that they didn't commit a foul...it's just some are more publicized than other...or complain too loudly.

IP: Logged
Gabba Hey
Member
Member # 20936

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Gabba Hey     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
That's what's hurting the game. Someone complains on every play.the refs should just throw out technicals even time, and bring a quick halt to it.everyone wants the foul, and most of them are terrible at the foul line.

--------------------
Im your huckleberry - Tombstone -- Sometimes to beat the bully. you have to be the bully. Michael Jordan. vs the Pistons

IP: Logged
tamalie from MN
Member
Member # 1138

Icon 1 posted      Profile for tamalie from MN     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Magic still had some elite to near elite seasons left in him, but the 1990-91 Lakers were the #3 seed in the West that year, behind the Blazers and the Spurs while not finishing too far ahead of the Suns and Jazz. This was a last hurrah type of team. I don't see any NBA Finals appearances in their future had an HIV free or HIV positive but unaware of it Magic stayed on for a few more seasons.
IP: Logged
  This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2   

Quick Reply
Message:

HTML is enabled.
UBB Code™ is enabled.

Instant Graemlins
   


Post New Topic  New Poll  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | WrestlingClassics.com Home Page

Click here to see the WCMB Rules and Regulations

Powered by UBB.classic™ 6.7.3