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» WrestlingClassics.com Message Board » Lou Thesz forum » VIEW: Lou Thesz vs Jersey Joe Walcott in an MMA-Style Bout; 8 Minutes of Film

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Author Topic: VIEW: Lou Thesz vs Jersey Joe Walcott in an MMA-Style Bout; 8 Minutes of Film
Ken Viewer
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Courtesy of The Boxing Hall of Fame in Las Vegas, here is roughly eight minutes of footage of Jersey Joe Walcott, famed former Heavyweight Boxing Champion of the World and, given his age at the time, other planets (though not at the time this match took place, circa 1963) vs Lou Thesz.

Soundtrack sounds dubbed.

Thesz is wrestling, Walcott boxing and both are performing:




Ken

[ 01-08-2018, 05:04 PM: Message edited by: Ken Viewer ]

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Crimson Mask from FL
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Great find, Ken. Always wanted to see that ever since I first heard of it.

Not at all hard to suspend disbelief on that.

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Crimson Mask from FL
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And yeah, way better muted.

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Crimson Mask from FL
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Joe did two of these vs. Lou, and two vs. Buddy.

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Ken Viewer
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Stuck here in the apartment all day, first to be here to take the call to go pick up an outpatient pal post-procedure, then stuck again due to bum weather, I had a senior moment and forgot I'm retired from searching for and posting footage.

Happy, though, CM, you finally got to see film of the match, which you probably knew about way before some of us were born.

Thanks for the added information about Walcott's other matches vs professional wrestlers.

Ken

[ 01-08-2018, 05:16 PM: Message edited by: Ken Viewer ]

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FlanaganP
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great footage
I inderstand the premise but Thesz could have ended it in a few seconds
Did he ever comment on this bout here on this board

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Crimson Mask from FL
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http://wrestlingclassics.com/.ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=10;t=000115#000001

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FlanaganP
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interesting, 'instinct' took over , do you think that was the planned finish or were they going to go to a draw

any idea of how the Rogers Walcott bout went, assume Rogers as more of a performer would have been more like a wrestling bout, Thesz I find it harder to believe he couldn't take a boxer down within seconds, still well presented and realistic

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Shaving Weezie Jefferson
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When and where was this?

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This post isn't about wrestling. It is intended only to mock and criticize Richard Wallner.

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Crimson Mask from FL
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Either 63 in Memphis or 66 in Jacksonville. I think this is 63.

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Steve Yohe
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Koji & I were talking about this clip. He says this is the 2nd match between the two. Took place in Jacksonville on Sept. 29, 1966.

The first match took place in Memphis on April 15, 1963.

Lou told Koji that the first one was a shoot...with Lou winning with "a double leg takedown & pin". There seems to be no tape of it.

The one on the clip, the 2nd match, was a business match or work. Lou did it for Don Curtis the promoter & Thesz's good friend. You can see Curtis ringside on the tape.

Koji was surprised to see the match & he thanks Ken.----Steve Yohe

[ 01-10-2018, 02:13 AM: Message edited by: Steve Yohe ]

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Ken Viewer
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Steve, would you kindly tell Koji I appreciate his thanks and also appreciate that, way-back-when, he contributed some money to our fund to pay the entire cost of the digitization and DVDs -- by the Chicago Film Archives -- of the Thesz vs Buddy Rogers first Chicago match (the ballpark one) held in 1950.

As for footage of the first Thesz vs Walcott bout, unless someone here (or Koji) was there, or Thesz himself said there was no recording of the event, I'd wager a cup of coffee that the match was filmed/taped. Where that footage is I do not know.

Why would Thesz do a public shoot-match unless the money was relatively huge, and when major money is involved, so are cameras...

I keep urging board-member Phil to take on the tasks of continuing the board's footage-archive, so perhaps he may be interested in contacting the Las Vegas-based Boxing Hall of Fame for more information. Or you or Crimson Mask could do it.

I'd be happy to see even a short shoot between those two great veterans of their sports/art-forms; particularly interesting is they both had so many decades of their professional careers under their respective belts.

Ken

[ 01-10-2018, 09:12 AM: Message edited by: Ken Viewer ]

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Matt Farmer from WA
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quote:
Originally posted by Steve Yohe:
Koji & I were talking about this clip. He says this is the 2nd match between the two. Took place in Jacksonville on Sept. 29, 1966.

Yup this is Jacksonville Coliseum. You can see Lester Welch as Joe's second and Sam Steamboat as Lou's second!
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Crimson Mask from FL
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I don't believe either match was a shoot. Kay fabe died hard with Lou.

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Crimson Mask from FL
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt Farmer from WA:
quote:
Originally posted by Steve Yohe:
Koji & I were talking about this clip. He says this is the 2nd match between the two. Took place in Jacksonville on Sept. 29, 1966.

Yup this is Jacksonville Coliseum. You can see Lester Welch as Joe's second and Sam Steamboat as Lou's second!
Now that I got to watch it on a regular size monitor instead of my phone, I can see Sam and Don. Could see Les even on the phone, but that wouldn't have made it *not* Memphis. Say, that's about the most animated I ever saw Les get.

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Steve Yohe
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No one believes it was a shoot....but that is what Lou said. Koji talked for hours with Lou....he was like a son...he told Koji a lot of inside stuff in their conversations. I don't think Lou knew what the truth was. Hooker is filled with bias stuff. It's still interesting to me & to everyone around Thesz. Koji is as smart as anyone & doesn't take everything as truth unless it matches up with facts.

I've told Koji stories. Like seeing a poster for a European tournament with The Destroyer on it. This was in Germany when I was in the army. This was a casual conversation at a hotel in Long Beach.

Two or three years later Koji came back to me & said that couldn't be true because my times were off by a year. He was right, but I do remember it happening. I was really impressed with Koji because he took apart a story that was years old. I thought it was cool. He is nobody's fool.---Yohe

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Crimson Mask from FL
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Some folks on this thread seem to believe it was a shoot.

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FlanaganP
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Thesz could have beat any wrestler never mind a boxer, in the clip above he's making a bout of it or it would have all been over in about 10 seconds , no ?
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Ken Viewer
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Crimson Mask posted a suggestion that some or someone posting in this thread believes one of the Thesz vs Walcott matches was a shoot.

Who? Darnold Duck doesn't post on this board (to my knowledge, anyway).

Reading Steve's first post on Koji's recollection of what Thesz told him, one could then reasonably assume that Koji believes it. But Steve's second post indicates that Koji doesn't believe what Thesz told him on this subject... so then no one here believes the Thesz claim.

When I found the footage, I posted a link to it here with no opinion as to what was happening in that bout, but I believe it clearly is no shoot. As to the other match, my speculation was, and is, if it was a shoot, it was filmed or taped. I suspect that footage was shot at the time, regardless of shoot/work, but have no knowledge of where it is.

Walcott likely would have required a significant payment or percentage of the gate for the requirement he not win. Money brings out cameras for ancillary revenue.

Fellow newsreels-historian Raging Bull1935 found footage of the doublecross at/in the Dick Shikat vs Danno O'Mahoney match at Madison Square Garden held in 1935, wherein Shikat shot on O'Mahoney. Raging Bull gave me the go-ahead some years back to post news -- a link or embed, too -- of his find here.

Steve's first post in this thread makes sense without Steve taking a position as to shoot or work, and Steve, in fact, took no position, while at the same time providing valuable information about the two matches:

quote:
Originally posted by Steve Yohe:
Koji & I were talking about this clip. He says this is the 2nd match between the two. Took place in Jacksonville on Sept. 29, 1966.

The first match took place in Memphis on April 15, 1963.

Lou told Koji that the first one was a shoot...with Lou winning with "a double leg takedown & pin". There seems to be no tape of it.

The one on the clip, the 2nd match, was a business match or work. Lou did it for Don Curtis the promoter & Thesz's good friend. You can see Curtis ringside on the tape.

Koji was surprised to see the match & he thanks Ken.----Steve Yohe

Ken

[ 01-11-2018, 06:10 AM: Message edited by: Ken Viewer ]

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ttf
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A treasure!
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Ken Viewer
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quote:
Originally posted by ttf:
A treasure!

TTF, as the likely seniormost Thesz fan here, and the one who saw, in-person, some of his matches long before anyone else alive here or most-anywhere, that's high praise for the film. I'm happy that you enjoyed it.

I'd use your comment to try to persuade the Las Vegas museum folks to examine their vaults to see what else they have in the way of wrestler-vs-boxer films were I still active in building an archive. I used up all my brain-power today getting a haircut and searching for fresh salad greens at a supermarket that appeared to have run out of funds/inventory.

May I suggest you pick up the telephone to those Las Vegas museum folks, explain you're the 34th member of this board and that -- at the least -- me, and maybe Yohe, promise them to visit (and Yohe will be in Nevada soon) the Las Vegas museum next time I'm in Nevada.

(In my case, alas, that may not be in this lifetime, but you don't need to volunteer that, though I'm sincere about wanting to visit), and others here may visit their museum because of that organization's respect for the history of boxing and boxers' forays into rasslin'.

Perhaps they have more boxer-vs-wrestler film and might post it online. If you ask, the worst they can say is that they don't have any additional footage.

I've run across at least a dozen other wrestler-vs-boxer film excerpts but, with the exception of Raging Bull's post of Jack Johnson as a professional wrestler *while* he held the world's heavyweight boxing title, and the Jack Dempsey stuff, haven't linked to most of it here.

By and large, the footage is of guys I never or barely heard of from the 1930s...except for Jack Dempsey.

Good luck if you proceed and please keep us updated.

Ken

[ 01-15-2018, 07:35 PM: Message edited by: Ken Viewer ]

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Steve Yohe
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Was Darnold Duck one of Donald's nephews? Maybe TTF knows?

Ken...I think TTF could kick your ass....he can still play basketball.

I'll be going to Las Vegas in May, but I'm not going to a boxing HOF. I'm taking my wife (she drives) & she is bring her sister from Mexico. Maybe her sister will go for you.---Yohe

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Ken Viewer
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quote:
Originally posted by Steve Yohe:
Was Darnold Duck one of Donald's nephews? Maybe TTF knows?

Ken...I think TTF could kick your ass....he can still play basketball.

I'll be going to Las Vegas in May, but I'm not going to a boxing HOF. I'm taking my wife (she drives) & she is bring her sister from Mexico. Maybe her sister will go for you.---Yohe

Darnold is the one who mumbles "Shitholes" all the time in that ducky voice.

I'm sure TTF could kick my butt. Glad to know TTF plays basketball these days. It's damn good exercise, and exercise, more and more in scientific studies, is turning out to be key to keeping one's mind sharp and body young. It's also the best thing out there for many people with mobility issues, such as me.

The number of new brain connections created as a product of exercise is significant, but until recent radiological breakthroughs, couldn't be proven. Now the science is backing the lore about exercise of almost any sort being tremendously beneficial, provided one's physician okays the exercise as not harmful to a specific person.

Isn't your blood pressure somewhere near zero, while you're very much alive, as a result of your walking, hiking, and basketball playing? I'd guess you also do other exercising. Good on ya.

If the Las Vegas Boxing Hall of Fame has the other Thesz vs Walcott match and is showing it only in their headquarters in L.V., you mean to tell me you wouldn't attend when you're in that town?

Ken

[ 01-16-2018, 08:29 AM: Message edited by: Ken Viewer ]

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doug
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Wow! Great find! I really enjoyed seeing this. I wish I could also see video of Rogers vs. Walcott. I used to read articles in the mags about it; but does any video exist of it? THANKS for sharing this!
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Ken Viewer
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Glad you liked it, Doug.

It's up to others to find the various Jersey Joe Walcott, and other boxers vs wrestlers, match-films that likely were made at the times of the various matches.

Everything still exists somewhere and I know this because I both claim it and The Darnold (who doesn't know me and wouldn't want to) says so, except when he denies he says so.

For instance, I kid you not, the American Library of Congress, which, at times, claims it has converted all of the paper-print versions of films made prior to 1913, which it holds, to 35 MM or video or digital versions, just found another warehouse full of previously-thought-destroyed paper prints and is sitting on this hoard, waiting for it to rot. Both of the 2,300-foot-excerpts of the Gotch vs Hackenschmidt matches may be there.

The George Hackenschmidt vs Joe Rogers 1908 world-title match was filmed in England by the American expatriat Charles (Carl) Urban, and shown in theaters across the world in abbreviated format on 35 MM film, and all prints of the film itself were thought destroyed. They weren't.

A silver-nitrate film-print turned up in New Zealand (it's been noted on the Lou Thesz Forum before by our Aussie/New Zealand friends). It sits there to this day, AFAIK, because no one wants to cough up the $14,000-or-so (a price I was once quoted for converting a different film) to have a reel of it restored and digitized (if this print turns out to be too far gone, the laboratory does not offer refunds and everything is cash-in-advance).

Also, the costs of shipping the highly-explosive silver-nitrate-based film to England or the U.S. (where labs that can do the work exist) are extraordinary.

And so we may never see it...unless Yohe raises the money from Koji and CM. (I be both retired from working and from posting links to prehistoric wrestling matches, and can't contribute any portion of my food stamps. Sorry.)

Ken

[ 03-03-2018, 06:05 PM: Message edited by: Ken Viewer ]

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