WrestlingClassics.com Message Board Post New Topic  New Poll  Post A Reply
my profile | directory login | register | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» WrestlingClassics.com Message Board » WON Information Forum » 2017 WON Ballot (Page 2)

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!   This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2   
Author Topic: 2017 WON Ballot
Steve Yohe
Member
Member # 302

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Steve Yohe     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
You would have to explain some of those picks, or they wouldn't stay on the ballot or even get put on by Dave. The Australians I know of but most of the non-wrestlers need to be fleshed out. It's a lot of people to being pushing too.--Yohe
IP: Logged
Matt Farmer from WA
Member
Member # 1177

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Matt Farmer from WA     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Interesting list. There some strong arguments there for sure.

After reading some of the great work done by Phil Lions, another name that should be in is Dan Koloff (Kolov).

--------------------
follow me on twitter at: @mattfarmer93
www.defywrestling.com
http://mlwradio.com/

IP: Logged
Wrestling Perspective
Member
Member # 1487

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Wrestling Perspective   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Steve Yohe:
Ok your not voting for Mr Wrestling I, Your voting for Johnny Walker. You have to vote for his whole career, not just the part after he put on a mask. I saw Walker in 1962, he didn't do enough for me to move him to the top of my list or put him in the top 10 of that list.---Steve Yohe

Let's say there was no Johnny Walker, just the Wrestling II phase and done. Would you look upon him more or less favorably when ranking for the HOF?

--------------------
Fake ... Working Through Wrestling's Past

Olympic Television: Broadcasting The Biggest Show On Earth

IP: Logged
The Masked Knight
Member
Member # 128835

Icon 1 posted      Profile for The Masked Knight   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Farmer from WA:
I shared this before for previous year Hall of Fame selections. It's a comparison between candidates of who drew the most number of large houses (10k plus). This is not necessary an indication of who was the biggest draw, just a tool to use and at times an eye opening to certain candidates.

I'm going to limit it to a top ten for each category.

Historical
1) Pedro Morales (more than double of number 2)
2) George Steele
3) Blackjack Mulligan
4) Cowboy Bob Ellis
5) Pepper Gomez
6) Enrique Torres
7) John Tolos
8) Rocky Johnson
9) Bearcat Wright
10) Mr. Wrestling II

Modern
1) Randy Orton (again double number 2)
2) Edge
3) CM Punk
4) Bill Goldberg
5) Sgt. Slaughter
6) Ultimate Warrior
7) Junkyard Dog
8) Curt Hennig
9) Kerry Von Erich
10) AJ Styles

Japan (big drop off after number 6)
1) Yuji Nagata
2) Jun Akiyama
3) Akira Taue
4) Kiyoshi Tamura
5) Yoshiaki Fujiwara
6) Minoru Suzuki
7) Tetsuya Naito
8) Hayabusa
9) Kota Ibushi
10) CIMA

Mexico
1) Villano III
2) Mistico
3) Cien Caras
4) Ultimo Guerrero
5) Dr. Wagner Jr
6) Sangre Chicana
7) LA Park
8) Blue Panther
9) Vampiro
10) Huracan Ramirez

Some of the older Luchadores, like Huracan Ramirez and Sangre Chicana I would assume should be higher than placed.

so based on that list are you going to vote for Pedro Morales, Randy Orton, Yuji Nagata and Villano III?

--------------------
n/a

IP: Logged
Matt Farmer from WA
Member
Member # 1177

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Matt Farmer from WA     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I did vote for three of them. Pedro Morales, Randy Orton and Villano III. I didn't vote Nagata.

Before I compiled this list I had already circled those three names, and also voted for those three last year. I've been a big proponent of what I feel are under represented Mexico. Along with Villano III, also voted for the team of Los Misioneros de la Muerte, Huracan Ramirez, Cien Caras and Karloff Lagarde.

I've been pushing for those guys for a number of years now and even got Lagarde and Caras on the ballot.

--------------------
follow me on twitter at: @mattfarmer93
www.defywrestling.com
http://mlwradio.com/

IP: Logged
The Masked Knight
Member
Member # 128835

Icon 1 posted      Profile for The Masked Knight   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
You might have voted for Nagata purely because he's one of the four (Tim Woods, Don Owen and Curt Hennig) who are due to be dropped from the ballot this year if they don't get 50%

[ 10-24-2017, 09:05 PM: Message edited by: The Masked Knight ]

--------------------
n/a

IP: Logged
Steve Ogilvie
Member
Member # 5116

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Steve Ogilvie   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Steve Yohe:
You would have to explain some of those picks, or they wouldn't stay on the ballot or even get put on by Dave. The Australians I know of but most of the non-wrestlers need to be fleshed out. It's a lot of people to being pushing too.--Yohe

The only Australian among my nominees is Ray Hunter.

If people don't know who Joint Promotions are that's worrying.

--------------------
"Mr 100%"

IP: Logged
OSJ from NM by way of WA
Member
Member # 6136

Icon 1 posted      Profile for OSJ from NM by way of WA   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Phil_Lions:
quote:
Originally posted by OSJ from NM by way of WA:

And the biggest problem? In some areas it's being corrected (props to the Aussie Posse), but we don't yet have a Yohe of Europe, doing meticulous research on the history of the sport. Well, maybe we do and we just haven't made contact with him, for all I know maybe there's a guy in San Marino who has detailed match listings for over a dozen countries and estimated box office for big events. However, until such a person comes forward we have to contend with a huge area where we know wrestling was extremely popular that just has huge gaps in its known history.

There is some information out there if you know where to look for it, but in my opinion in general European stars are a tough bunch to make a case for, because of how different the scene was there. It was all about selling out smaller arenas night after night as opposed to running big events in big arenas. With such a business model it's hard to point the finger at a certain wrestler and show definitive proof that he was a major draw. And what makes it even harder is that a lot of the time the European press did not mention concrete numbers when talking about the attendance of the shows.

There's no better example of this than the Central European tournaments. There are reports claiming certain tournaments have sold, for example, 60,000+ tickets over the course of 4 weeks of shows. That's daily shows, night after night in the same arena, packing 2,000+ each night. To me that's super impressive, but how do you go about proving that such and such was the draw? It's hard. You can tell by the newspaper reports who the most popular guys were, but still there are no huge events to point to and use this as proof that guy #1 was a way bigger draw than guy #2.

Continental Europe in general is just very overlooked when it comes to the WON HOF. And understandably so as the European information is not as readily available as the information for other regions is. And even based on the info that is available it's still hard to make a genuine case for most European stars because of what I was discussing above. For me personally especially some of the earlier European stars like Paul Pons, Jaan Jaago, Ivan Poddubny, Jess Pedersen, etc. are no-brainers, but it's tough to make a case for them because of the way the European scene was set up back then and the way it was covered in the press.

P.S. I'm not a WON voter or a subscriber so I don't have a horse in this race, so to speak, but I just thought I'd chime in with my own two cents since Europe is one of my main areas of research.

Phil:

I should have responded much earlier, but this damn cold has slowed me down. ;-( The WON HOF needs guys like you voting, I'm sure Dave would send you a ballot if you asked. You're an invaluable resource on European wrestling and you'd be the first guy that I'd go to with questions. Oh, hey, here's one:
In the tournament that you mention, I am assuming that it was sell-out night after night with no blips to indicate the popularity of participants? That's the kind of thing that makes it really tough to ascertain a wrestler's drawing power.

If WWE kept track during the Mae Young Classic (and I'm assuming that they didn't, because, you know, WWE...) we would have found pretty extreme blips based on who was wrestling on a given show.

[ 10-25-2017, 09:37 AM: Message edited by: OSJ from NM by way of WA ]

--------------------
"What you say sounds reasonable enough," said the man, "but I refuse to be bribed. I am here to whip people, and whip them I shall!")
-Franz Kafka - The Trial

IP: Logged
Phil_Lions
Member
Member # 5296

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Phil_Lions     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by OSJ from NM by way of WA:

In the tournament that you mention, I am assuming that it was sell-out night after night with no blips to indicate the popularity of participants? That's the kind of thing that makes it really tough to ascertain a wrestler's drawing power.

If WWE kept track during the Mae Young Classic (and I'm assuming that they didn't, because, you know, WWE...) we would have found pretty extreme blips based on who was wrestling on a given show.

Unfortunately, in most cases the reports about the tournaments don't mention much about the attendance beyond "last night the arena was packed", if even that. Attendance just wasn't reported on as much as in other places. Very rarely do you see actual numbers in the press when it comes to the tournaments. And then every once in a while you'd come across a claim about the total attendance a tournament has drawn (like the example I was using earlier). If you go through the newspaper reports you can get a sense of who the most popular guys were during the tournament, but you can't really show any concrete numbers and proof that they were indeed the draws. And therein lies the problem. I can tell you that a certain European wrestler was a major star, but it's hard for me to prove it to you like you can with the North American or Japanese stars where you have all these big arena events to use as examples of drawing power.

There's not a whole lot of European territories where the promoters ran big events in big venues (i.e. 10,000+) on a consistent basis. It was all about shows in smaller and mid-sized venues and when you're dealing with such a business model, plus the lack of reported numbers, it's much harder to come up with examples that so and so was a major draw in order to convince people that was the case.

IP: Logged
OSJ from NM by way of WA
Member
Member # 6136

Icon 1 posted      Profile for OSJ from NM by way of WA   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Phil_Lions:
quote:
Originally posted by OSJ from NM by way of WA:

In the tournament that you mention, I am assuming that it was sell-out night after night with no blips to indicate the popularity of participants? That's the kind of thing that makes it really tough to ascertain a wrestler's drawing power.

If WWE kept track during the Mae Young Classic (and I'm assuming that they didn't, because, you know, WWE...) we would have found pretty extreme blips based on who was wrestling on a given show.

Unfortunately, in most cases the reports about the tournaments don't mention much about the attendance beyond "last night the arena was packed", if even that. Attendance just wasn't reported on as much as in other places. Very rarely do you see actual numbers in the press when it comes to the tournaments. And then every once in a while you'd come across a claim about the total attendance a tournament has drawn (like the example I was using earlier). If you go through the newspaper reports you can get a sense of who the most popular guys were during the tournament, but you can't really show any concrete numbers and proof that they were indeed the draws. And therein lies the problem. I can tell you that a certain European wrestler was a major star, but it's hard for me to prove it to you like you can with the North American or Japanese stars where you have all these big arena events to use as examples of drawing power.

There's not a whole lot of European territories where the promoters ran big events in big venues (i.e. 10,000+) on a consistent basis. It was all about shows in smaller and mid-sized venues and when you're dealing with such a business model, plus the lack of reported numbers, it's much harder to come up with examples that so and so was a major draw in order to convince people that was the case.

I think you've highlighted a very powerful tool that probably doesn't get as much use as it should: "going through newspaper reports". In baseball research, we have these yardsticks of "gray ink" and "black ink", which are pretty much the result of just that, going through newspaper and newsreels to get a sense of how a player was regarded by his contemporaries. It was particularly worthwhile in weeding out some of the real old timers who were making fantastic claims about themselves or friends of theirs from the late 19th- early 20th Centuries. If Joe Oldtimer claimed Bob Boughtmeadrink was the greatest shortstop who ever played yet there are no mentions of him whatsoever in the press covering his teams, one has to assume that Joe Oldtimer is babbling through his hat.

On the other hand, take a player who died relatively young and has no one beating the drum for them so to speak and you find reams of clippings lauding how great they were, it may well mean that a much closer look is in order.

I, for one would love to see some of your research that points to HOF-worthinesss for someone not given current consideration on the ballot. BTW: Dave is very receptive to learning new stuff, it's what he does. ;-)

--------------------
"What you say sounds reasonable enough," said the man, "but I refuse to be bribed. I am here to whip people, and whip them I shall!")
-Franz Kafka - The Trial

IP: Logged
Steve Ogilvie
Member
Member # 5116

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Steve Ogilvie   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Yes, i'd like to see Phil join in on the ballot as well.

With Europe (including UK), i'm looking at things like consistency, how people were booked across their career, where they were featured, how the papers wrote about them. In addition, any references or opinions from their peers, people who saw them, people who were trained with them etc.

I agree the criteria is different, but that's a good thing. If it's to be a worldwide hall of fame, it needs to include wrestling worldwide, as it was for many years something that was a worldwide phenomenon.

--------------------
"Mr 100%"

IP: Logged
The Masked Knight
Member
Member # 128835

Icon 1 posted      Profile for The Masked Knight   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Also why don't Shane McMahon and Stephanie McMahon even get nominated in the non-wrestler category? Is it McMahon family bias?

--------------------
n/a

IP: Logged
Matt Farmer from WA
Member
Member # 1177

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Matt Farmer from WA     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'm sure Shane and Stephanie will get put on the ballot soon. How could it be a family bias when both Sr and Jr are in, and Dave put them in.

As for guys dropping off due to the percentage. I'm fine with those guys dropping off. They didn't get enough support so they probably won't get in unless something changes. And we've seen examples of guys coming back and getting enough votes.

--------------------
follow me on twitter at: @mattfarmer93
www.defywrestling.com
http://mlwradio.com/

IP: Logged
The Masked Knight
Member
Member # 128835

Icon 1 posted      Profile for The Masked Knight   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
But if there is no McMahon bias, how come Jess McMahon-- VJM's father and VKM's grandfather and the man who made pro wrestling in New York City and was the matchmaker at MSG for decades-- not in?

--------------------
n/a

IP: Logged
OSJ from NM by way of WA
Member
Member # 6136

Icon 1 posted      Profile for OSJ from NM by way of WA   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
That's really a Dave question, as I can't see too many modern voters getting excited about Jess McMahon. Despite your hyperbole, he wasn't by any stretch of the imagination "the man who made pro wrestling in NY". Was he a very important historical figure? You bet your sweet bippy he was. Has anyone really done the research and made a compelling argument for his induction? I know I haven't, I'm pretty sure Yohe and Matt haven't either... This could be your golden opportunity!

Here's a hint (or two): Facts, facts, and more facts. The more that you can write about an individual without using any superlative adjectives, the better.

Check those facts. Dave will.

Show don't tell. "The NY press considered him the greatest promoter in the world!" = BAD
"Damon Runyon, Joe Drinkmylunch, and Eddie Latedeadline all wrote columns extolling the virtues of McMahon's matchmaking savvy." = GOOD
Cites of specific columns. = EVEN BETTER

Do not throw in unsubstantiated bull-puckey that you think bolsters your argument. You WILL get caught and it won't be pretty. Someone, (I think it may have been Drew) posted some nonsense about Hayabusa headlining cards of over 50,000 attendees multiple times. I'm an old FMW mark, so I knew that was ******** the second I saw it, but while I was busy typing a response that would have blistered the poor kid's eyeballs, Matt already called him on it.

Go ahead and show warts and all, you might well be able to quash an argument against your man before it starts by having your facts together. Example (real life one by the way) "Mr. Pelan, you've never sold more than 40,000 copies of any book you've written or edited, does that make you a failure?"
My response? "No, the publishers have never seen fit to print more than 40,000 copies and oddly enough, when they sell all of them they fuss that they only sold 40,000 like it was my fault. Sorry guys, I didn't place the print order, you did."

My buddy, Yohe keeps hitting a brick wall on Orville Brown (who I also think ought to be in), the main knock is too much time in one territory. Well, hell's bells, the man owned the territory what was he supposed to do, let his business go ****-all and take a monthly gig for a competitor? That's just silly. But if you don't know the backstory, you might very well view Brown as a regional guy only.

Jess McMahon is a fascinating individual for a lot of reasons. I don't know that he's a HOFr, write up something, convince me, convince the other voters, give Dave something to think about.

--------------------
"What you say sounds reasonable enough," said the man, "but I refuse to be bribed. I am here to whip people, and whip them I shall!")
-Franz Kafka - The Trial

IP: Logged
Steve Ogilvie
Member
Member # 5116

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Steve Ogilvie   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Knight:
But if there is no McMahon bias, how come Jess McMahon-- VJM's father and VKM's grandfather and the man who made pro wrestling in New York City and was the matchmaker at MSG for decades-- not in?

How did he "make" wrestling in New York City?

There were plenty of major wrestling shows before he got involved.

--------------------
"Mr 100%"

IP: Logged
Steve Yohe
Member
Member # 302

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Steve Yohe     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Jess, if I remember right, was a boxing guy & promoted negro baseball. He was the boxing matchmaker in MSG. His wrestling cards were minor. Bill Johnson was the promoter of MSG when it reopened to wrestling in December 1949. ---Yohe
IP: Logged
Steve Yohe
Member
Member # 302

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Steve Yohe     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The major promoters get cheated in all the HOF, mainly because they are listed with managers. But the Observer has done the best job of getting them in. Tim, JMK, me & other have pushed to get them in, but you can only get one a year. I think we have gotten Curley, Packs, Fabiani, Shire, Quin & Bowser. The WON has more of the majors than anyone else. I think Lou Daro should go in.--Yohe

[ 11-14-2017, 12:23 AM: Message edited by: Steve Yohe ]

IP: Logged
Steve Yohe
Member
Member # 302

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Steve Yohe     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I don't think Jack Pfefer is in the HOF. It may be because I've been very negative about him in the past. Anyone think there's a wrong being made with that?

Dick Shikat isn't in the HOF & I've been against him because of the O'Mahoney doublecross in 1935 & the disruption of pro wrestling as a national sport. Putting it into a dark age for 10 years. Is that an injustice to Shikat?

Any ideas? Have I been wrong.---Steve Yohe

IP: Logged
Crimson Mask from FL
Administrator
Member # 10449

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Crimson Mask from FL     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Max Jacobs did the research on Jess McMahon. It's in his Milo and the Halitosis Kid paper, which is a far more credible piece of work than the famous Buddy Rogers paper.

--------------------
So long from the Sunshine State!

IP: Logged
Steve Yohe
Member
Member # 302

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Steve Yohe     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Shane and Stephanie careers are going to jump into over drive as soon as Vince JR dies. Lets wait on them to see their future and see what happens when they run things on their own. As is....I would describe Stephanie as more of a booker than anything else...as least so far. (They are in ring performers, should they be listed as announcers?.) That's how you can describe him as long as Vince is around. Shane...I don't know what he does. Talking with Jim Ross, he told me that Shane was going to run things if Vince poops out...and he seemed sure of it.

How many pure bookers have been put in the HOF? I think George Scott is on the ballet as a booker...are any "just bookers" guys in yet? Bobby Bruns was a great booker in St Louis & the mid-west & the first Japanese cards....do you think that will get him in? Most everyone is a owner & they had bookers running things. Jules Strongbow was never a owner, but he ran Los Angeles from 1957 to around 1970. A booker?? More trainers & announcers are in, than bookers.---Steve Yohe

[ 11-14-2017, 10:49 PM: Message edited by: Steve Yohe ]

IP: Logged
Matt Farmer from WA
Member
Member # 1177

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Matt Farmer from WA     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'm not sure Jess McMahon is a Hall of Fame worthy promoter. The big New York business was usually under the helm of another promoter.

He definitely did not make wrestling in New York City.

--------------------
follow me on twitter at: @mattfarmer93
www.defywrestling.com
http://mlwradio.com/

IP: Logged
  This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2   

Quick Reply
Message:

HTML is enabled.
UBB Code™ is enabled.

Instant Graemlins
   


Post New Topic  New Poll  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | WrestlingClassics.com Home Page

Click here to see the WCMB Rules and Regulations

Powered by UBB.classic™ 6.7.3