WrestlingClassics.com Message Board Post New Topic  New Poll  Post A Reply
my profile | directory login | register | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» WrestlingClassics.com Message Board » WON Information Forum » 2013 WON HOF Ballot (Page 1)

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!   This topic comprises 3 pages: 1  2  3   
Author Topic: 2013 WON HOF Ballot
clawmaster64
Member
Member # 743

Icon 1 posted      Profile for clawmaster64     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
It arrived in my email inbox this morning.

------

It's time for the 2013 Hall of Fame elections.

This ballot is being sent out to major wrestling stars, past and present, major management figures in the industry, writers and historians.

If you are getting this, you are being asked your opinion on who should be inducted into this year's Hall of Fame class. The criteria for the Hall of Fame is a combination of drawing power, being a great in-ring performer or excelling in ones field in pro wrestling, as well as having historical significance in a positive manner. A candidate should either have something to offer in all three categories, or be someone so outstanding in one or two of those categories that they deserve inclusion.

The names listed below are those under consideration for this year. To be eligible, a performer must have reached their 35th birthday and completed ten years since their debut as a full-time performer, or be someone who has been a full-time pro wrestler for at least 15 years.

Longevity should be a prime consideration rather than a hot two or three year run, unless someone is so significant as a trend-setter or a historical figure in the business, or valuable to the industry, that they need to be included. However, just longevity without being either a long-term main eventer, a top draw and/or a top caliber in-ring performer should be seen as relatively meaningless.

The election is broken down into a number of categories. You should check each category for wrestlers that you feel you are familiar enough with based on geography that you've either traveled or are familiar with, and based on the time you have followed pro wrestling. You do not have to vote for a wrestler in every category you've checked.

The ballot is also broken down to wrestlers and those who are not pro wrestlers but have been valuable parts of the industry.

The maximum number of wrestlers that you can vote for all the categories is ten. You can pick as few as zero if you don't believe anyone on this list deserves inclusion.

For wrestling executives, managers, announcers and other outside the ring performers, you can vote for them and they are not counted against the ten. You can vote for as many as five of them.

All responses are confidential. There is nothing to worry about politically about any involvement in this process. Your selections will not be revealed unless you choose to do so yourself.

Anyone who receives mention on 60% of the ballots from the geographical region and time frame (broken down as Continental United States & Canada; Mexico; Japan; Europe; and Hawaii/Australia/New Zealand/Puerto Rico) will be added to the Hall of Fame in the class of 2013.

If you are unfamiliar with any of the candidates due to geography of having never seen them, that is fine. Ballots are sent to many people from all over the world and from different wrestling cultures so that everyone has as fair a shot at possible.

The breakdown for modern and historical performers is 30 years ago, or 1983. So if the last year the person was a headliner, or was a key figure in the industry, was prior to 1983, they would be in the historical class.

All performers who receive mention on 10% to 59.9% of the ballots from their geographical region or era will remain on the ballot for consideration next year. All those who receive less than 10% of the vote will be dropped from next year's ballot. They can return in two years based on if there is significant feedback from voters who say they will vote for them. This is mostly for wrestlers who are still active who may improve their career legacy, but can be for retired wrestlers if voters believe they should be put on or returned to the ballot.

------

I FOLLOWED THE HISTORICAL PERFORMERS ERA CANDIDATES
Gene & Ole Anderson
The Assassins (Joe Hamilton & Tom Renesto)
Red Bastien
June Byers
Pepper Gomez
Rip Hawk
Dick Hutton
Ciclon Negro
Dutch Savage
Kinji Shibuya
Wilbur Snyder
John Tolos
Enrique Torres
Count Billy Varga
Von Brauners & Saul Weingeroff
Tim "Mr. Wrestling" Woods

I FOLLOWED THE MODERN PERFORMERS IN U.S/CANADA CANDIDATES
Bob Armstrong
Batista
Edge
Owen Hart
Curt Hennig
Ivan Koloff
Brock Lesnar
Fabulous Moolah
Pedro Morales
Dick Murdoch
Ken Patera
Rock & Roll Express (Ricky Morton & Robert Gibson)
Sgt. Slaughter
Jimmy Snuka
Sting
A.J. Styles
Johnny "Mr. Wrestling II" Walker

I FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN JAPAN CANDIDATES
George Gordienko
Gran Hamada
Volk Han
Masahiko Kimura
Yuji Nagata
Seiji Sakaguchi
Kensuke Sasaki
Mike & Ben Sharpe
Kiyoshi Tamura
Hiroshi Tanahashi

I FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN MEXICO CANDIDATES
Atlantis
Cien Caras
Hector Garza
Karloff Lagarde
Blue Panther
L.A. Park
Huracan Ramirez
Vampiro
Villano III
Dr. Wagner Jr.
Dr. Wagner Sr.

I FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN EUROPE CANDIDATES
Jim Breaks
Big Daddy
Giant Haystacks
Horst Hoffman
Billy Joyce
Kendo Nagasaki
Jackie Pallo
Rollerball Mark Rocco
Johnny Saint

I FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN AUSTRALIA/PACIFIC ISLANDS/PUERTO RICO CANDIDATES
Spyros Arion
Johnny Barend
Carlos Colon
Domenic DeNucci
Killer Karl Kox
Mark Lewin
Mario Milano

NON-WRESTLERS
Bill Apter
Dave Brown
Jim Crockett Jr.
Jim Crockett Sr.
Gary Hart
Jimmy Hart
Howard Finkel
Jerry Jarrett
Takashi Matsunaga
Gorilla Monsoon
Gene Okerlund
Don Owen
Jesse Ventura
Stanley Weston

--------------------
"We were so close, there was no room
We bled inside each others wounds
We all had caught the same disease
And we all sang the songs of peace"-- Melanie Safka

IP: Logged
clawmaster64
Member
Member # 743

Icon 1 posted      Profile for clawmaster64     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
So far my ballot looks like this. I need to do more research on a number of other candidates.

Wrestlers

Wilbur Snyder
Enrique Torres
Ivan Koloff

Non Wrestlers

Bill Apter is getting my vote.

[ 09-06-2013, 01:14 PM: Message edited by: clawmaster64 ]

--------------------
"We were so close, there was no room
We bled inside each others wounds
We all had caught the same disease
And we all sang the songs of peace"-- Melanie Safka

IP: Logged
Steve Yohe
Member
Member # 302

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Steve Yohe     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Is Apter a better pick than Stanley Weston? I know that Apter is known & liked by just about everyone but does that make hin a HOF'er.

Why no Wade Keller? After all these years, it's about time sheet writers made the list. They were at least reporting real wrestling news & not making stories up to fit photos. I know Dave can't be in his own HOF, so why not Keller?

Mike Tenay has won a lot of WON awards but slso is a very good friend of Dave's. I wonder it being too close to the Observer keeps you off the list. So that would explain Keller too.--Steve Yohe

IP: Logged
Steve Yohe
Member
Member # 302

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Steve Yohe     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The major pick this year seems to be Takashi Matsunaga who promoted Japanese women wrestling for like 37 years & produced some of the best matches in history. He is a no brainer but I wonder how many people know his name.--Yohe
IP: Logged
Steve Yohe
Member
Member # 302

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Steve Yohe     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Over the last year I've been watching a lot of WWE wrestling, old & new. I like the classic channel & I've seen most of the PPVs. I'm a little behind but I'm trying to keep in touch with today's wrestling. Also bought a lot of DVDs.

This year I'm voting for Brock Lesnar. There are a lot of names in the HOF who got in mainly because of their reputation as shooter/hookers/rippers. You know guys like Assirati & Karl Gotch. Well no one in the history of pro wrestling has risked his tough guy reputation & skills more in public shoot situations (exception might be Hodge doing pro boxing) than Brock Lesnar and he was good enough to make it to the top level of MMA. I also love his matches in pro wrestling and he's good box office. To me, a lot of WWE names are just company creations, but Lesnar could work anywhere, and at any time, in any country...and be a top wrestling star. He is a major deal and I voted for him. Might be a fan boy type of thing, but I did it.--Steve Yohe

IP: Logged
clawmaster64
Member
Member # 743

Icon 1 posted      Profile for clawmaster64     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Steve Yohe:
Is Apter a better pick than Stanley Weston? I know that Apter is known & liked by just about everyone but does that make hin a HOF'er.

I think Weston being on the ballot will hurt Apter.

--------------------
"We were so close, there was no room
We bled inside each others wounds
We all had caught the same disease
And we all sang the songs of peace"-- Melanie Safka

IP: Logged
clawmaster64
Member
Member # 743

Icon 1 posted      Profile for clawmaster64     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Steve Yohe:

This year I'm voting for Brock Lesnar. There are a lot of names in the HOF who got in mainly because of their reputation as shooter/hookers/rippers. You know guys like Assirati & Karl Gotch. Well no one in the history of pro wrestling has risked his tough guy reputation & skills more in public shoot situations (exception might be Hodge doing pro boxing) than Brock Lesnar and he was good enough to make it to the top level of MMA. I also love his matches in pro wrestling and he's good box office. To me, a lot of WWE names are just company creations, but Lesnar could work anywhere, and at any time, in any country...and be a top wrestling star. He is a major deal and I voted for him. Might be a fan boy type of thing, but I did it.--Steve Yohe

I'm considering Lesnar and also Edge. Not sure if I'll vote for either of them. I'm actually considering many others too. There seems to be less and less no brainers with each passing year.

[ 09-06-2013, 06:41 PM: Message edited by: clawmaster64 ]

--------------------
"We were so close, there was no room
We bled inside each others wounds
We all had caught the same disease
And we all sang the songs of peace"-- Melanie Safka

IP: Logged
Crimson Mask from FL
Administrator
Member # 10449

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Crimson Mask from FL     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'm thinking about Lesnar. Enrique Torres obviously (after all the work Yohe and I did to get him on the ballot) and Volk Han, as every year, will get my vote. Ciclon Negro is on this year and he's getting my vote. Will have no problem filling up the allowable 10 as there are more than enough viable candidates, if not no brainers IMO. Strongly considering June Byers. And yeah, Weston will get my vote among the nonwrestlers.

So long from the Sunshine State!

--------------------
So long from the Sunshine State!

IP: Logged
Crimson Mask from FL
Administrator
Member # 10449

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Crimson Mask from FL     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Steve Yohe:
Well no one in the history of pro wrestling has risked his tough guy reputation & skills more in public shoot situations (exception might be Hodge doing pro boxing) than Brock Lesnar and he was good enough to make it to the top level of MMA.

Well... Sakuraba.

--------------------
So long from the Sunshine State!

IP: Logged
Seven
Member
Member # 3904

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Seven     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by clawmaster64:
So far my ballot looks like this. I need to do more research on a number of other candidates.

Wrestlers

Wilbur Snyder
Enrique Torres
Ivan Koloff

Non Wrestlers

Bill Apter is getting my vote.

I know you have been open to the idea of Patera claw, I hope you will strongly consider voting for him. My big fear is that he will drop off right away without people even considering him. I know he's not a stone cold lock, but with the exception of Ivan Koloff I don't think there is anyone in the modern performers category who is clearly a better candidate than him. I'm hoping to finish a Gordy List on him before the vote is due, but that might be too little, too late.
IP: Logged
Stephen Gennarelli
Member
Member # 21747

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Stephen Gennarelli     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'm surprised that Lord Al Hayes and Paul Orndorff didn't make the ballot this year.
Lord Al made a good showing for himself recently on one of those Observer polls regarding who should be on the ballot.
Well...maybe next year.

IP: Logged
Steve Yohe
Member
Member # 302

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Steve Yohe     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I would take Lesnar's pro wrestling career over Sakuraba's. As always I'm voting for Volk Han.--Yohe

[ 09-07-2013, 02:16 AM: Message edited by: Steve Yohe ]

IP: Logged
Crimson Mask from FL
Administrator
Member # 10449

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Crimson Mask from FL     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Yeah but Sakuraba did a LOT more public shoot fights than Lesnar did, or than Hodge had boxing matches even if you count amateur AND pro, and was for a time regarded as the #1 P4P.

--------------------
So long from the Sunshine State!

IP: Logged
OSJ from NM by way of WA
Member
Member # 6136

Icon 1 posted      Profile for OSJ from NM by way of WA   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Non-wrestlers:
Takashi Matsunaga
Don Owen

Wrestlers:
Volk Han
Ken Patera
Mark Lewin
Cien Caras
Atlantis
L.A. Park
Kendo Nagasaki
Jackie Pallo
Enrique Torres

So much for the idea that we're running low on worthy candidates... ;-)

--------------------
"What you say sounds reasonable enough," said the man, "but I refuse to be bribed. I am here to whip people, and whip them I shall!")
-Franz Kafka - The Trial

IP: Logged
Matt Farmer from WA
Member
Member # 1177

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Matt Farmer from WA     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Haven't really put much thought process into the selections yet for this year, but just looking at the names representing Mexico I see at least 4 or 5 that should be in the HOF. Cien Caras, Huracan Ramirez, Villano III, Karloff Lagarde, and Dr. Wagner. Dr. Wagner Jr and Atlantis are Hall of Famers too.
IP: Logged
clawmaster64
Member
Member # 743

Icon 1 posted      Profile for clawmaster64     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Seven:
quote:
Originally posted by clawmaster64:
So far my ballot looks like this. I need to do more research on a number of other candidates.

Wrestlers

Wilbur Snyder
Enrique Torres
Ivan Koloff

Non Wrestlers

Bill Apter is getting my vote.

I know you have been open to the idea of Patera claw, I hope you will strongly consider voting for him. My big fear is that he will drop off right away without people even considering him. I know he's not a stone cold lock, but with the exception of Ivan Koloff I don't think there is anyone in the modern performers category who is clearly a better candidate than him. I'm hoping to finish a Gordy List on him before the vote is due, but that might be too little, too late.
Uncle Ivan is the biggest no brainer of the modern performers category. I'm stunned he hasn't already been inducted. Patera is a very interesting case. Because of his athletic background, he was pushed hard from the beginning of his career. Bleaching his hair blonde and turning heel brought him to another level especially in McMahonland. He's one of the few guys to challenge Bruno, Backlund and SBG for the W(WWF) title.

--------------------
"We were so close, there was no room
We bled inside each others wounds
We all had caught the same disease
And we all sang the songs of peace"-- Melanie Safka

IP: Logged
Stephen Gennarelli
Member
Member # 21747

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Stephen Gennarelli     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
....Kenny P. also went up against Hogan in a few WWF title bouts.
IP: Logged
clawmaster64
Member
Member # 743

Icon 1 posted      Profile for clawmaster64     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Stephen Gennarelli:
....Kenny P. also went up against Hogan in a few WWF title bouts.

Thanks. That makes an even stronger case for Patera. The reason I started the thread here in this forum on this board is the wide variety of people, voters and non voters, that will jump in with more information on particular candidates.

--------------------
"We were so close, there was no room
We bled inside each others wounds
We all had caught the same disease
And we all sang the songs of peace"-- Melanie Safka

IP: Logged
Seven
Member
Member # 3904

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Seven     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I am hoping to finish a Gordy List in the next few weeks on Patera but it may not happen in time. In any case I have a ton of stuff compiled on him in this forum and hopefully the voters here will check it out even if they don't agree with my conclusion that he should be in the Hall.

I'm not a voter, but I'm interested in looking more into Lewin this year.

Also for those who are willing/going to vote for a Lucha candidate, this write up on Villano III should be essential reading.

Arturo Díaz Mendoza, Villano III, was born on March 23, 1950 in Mexico City as the third oldest kid of the eight children that lucha libre legend Ray Mendoza had with his long time wife Guadalupe "Lupita" Mendoza.
Since they were little kids, their father had all the boys in the family participate in several sports, so they'd not be wasting their time doing nothing in the streets. Arturo was a good amateur wrestler, and in July of 1962, when he was only 12 years old, won a local amateur tournament in the under 27 kilos (60 pounds) division.
Following the steps of his father, and his two older brothers who already were wrestlers, he started training at the Arena Naucalpan gym with Felipe Ham Lee and his father. Mendoza did not want any of his sons to be wrestlers because he did not want them to be hurt all the time like he was, but ended up accepting it since they were living inside the business from a young age. However, one condition that he put on them is that he wanted them to finish a career of their choice, so they'd have something to do if they got injured or had to retire early. Arturo studied at the Escuela Superior de Educacion Fisica (Physical Education High School) where he got a P.E. degree, like his older brother José de Jesús (Villano I) had gotten a few years before.
One day, a wrestler no-showed an undercard spot at Arena Neza where he was hanging out and training, and the wrestlers at the locker room suggested Arturo to work as a replacement. He was not sure of it, because he was far from ready, but since everybody was cheering him on it, he did it. Using no mask, and the name Ray Rosas, he made his debut on that January 29 of 1970. He was green, but those who saw him labeled him as having so much class for somebody at his level.
From then on, he used several names like Pulpo Blanco (White Octopus), Mancha Roja (Red Stain), Búfalo Salvaje (Wild Buffalo - which was the name his two older brothers used in a tag team), but he the one he used the most during that era was Rokambole (which was the name his brother Villano V would use several years later during his rookie years).
In January of 1973 it was considered that he was ready to pick up the family name, so he switched to Villano III, debuting as such at Arena Naucalpan, which has been sort of a family base for years as that's the arena where each and every one of the five brothers got their seasoning and their first push. In 1974 he captured the Welterweight division titles of Mexico State and Naucalpan, getting his first, and definitely not last, taste of gold in the business.
As a rudo, V3 was considered to be a "natural" for the business and a good worker from the start. By 1975 he got his first big break in the business when his father and long time friends René Guajardo and Karloff Lagarde, along with many other major stars, joined forces with promoter Francisco J. Flores and started the independent movement. One of the reasons why Mendoza left EMLL was that the new office (Lutteroth had stepped out and let his son Salvador Jr., and nephew Paco Alonso run the office by themselves) was not very interested in pushing Villanos I and II, and probably III had he been working for them more often. Still, Villano would go on and debut at Arena Coliseo on November 19, 1975 and at Arena Mexico on March 2, 1976, but he never had continuity in EMLL's major arenas.
In 1975, because he was very affordable and he was such a good worker, many of the smaller arenas of the UWA network used him as a headliner for many profitable shows where they'd build to mask vs. hair or mask matches with the local stars, who would lose to the new independent sensation. The most famous of his opponents were Memo Ventura, La Cobra, The Corzo Brothers and Lobo Rubio, the later being his foe in a mask vs. hair opener at the big supershow at Plaza Mexico that was headlined by Mil Mascaras vs. Lou Thesz (and that tanked badly because of a huge rainstorm).
By the end of the year (December), his hard work (and why not, a bit of family connections) paid off and he became the initial UWA World Welterweight champion by defeating legendary welterweight Huracán Ramírez (and not Solar I like some title histories say). He feuded with Solar I around the belt on and off for two years until May of 1977, when he was beat for it by the young up-and-comer.
During these years, and until he became a bigger star later, his biggest archievent was taking the masks of Los Escorpiones (Raul Reyes -not the L.A. one- and Benny Romero), a famous team that worked not only in Mexico, but also in the USA and Puerto Rico. That night, August 13 of 1978, his tag team partner was Bobby Lee, the young and talented performer who months later became famous as El Santo's final major singles opponent... and who ended up being a "what could have been" as his career was ended way short by injuries.
Even though he already had won several ones in the past, this was Villano's first major (realistically, semi-major) "lucha de apuestas" win.
Villano III teaming up with other young superworkers, such as Matematico, was a thing you could often see in the main event of some of the small or mid-sized venues of the network of independent promoters in Mexico. This helped him build a reputation as one of the top workers in the country, at a time when in Mexico there was more and better wrestlers than at probably any point in lucha libre history.
He became a much bigger star in the early 80s, to be more exact, 1981. He had already been working at El Toreo for some time, often teaming with his father Ray Mendoza or his brothers Villanos I and II. While he worked as a rudo, he was a rudo that fans liked to cheer... even more so when he was teaming with his father, who due to his legendary status just would not get booed. But he really caught everybody's attention on March 1, 1981, by defeating Fishman at El Toreo to win the UWA World Light Heavyweight Title. This win was a huge deal, because of several things.
First, the Light Heavyweight Title was the second most important title in the country. Second, it was "his father's title". During years and years, Mendoza had been the reigning NWA World Light Heavyweight champ at Arena Mexico, and while it was not the same belt, it symbolically had been continuing that tradition (and either way, Mendoza was a three time former UWA LHW champ). And last but not least, he had beaten a major star cleanly for it. Back then, Fishman was much higher than Villano III at the totem pole and was a highly regarded technical wrestler. Villano lost the title just four months later, on July 19 at the same venue, but the point had been already made.
While during El Toreo's golden years Fishman was the eternal UWA World LHW champion or challenger, V3 would become the dominant face of the WWF World Light Heavyweight title, born out of the association of LLI and the World Wrestling Federation. Due to the excellent matches around that title with people like Perro Aguayo, Gran Hamada, Villano III and Fishman himself, that title actually surpassed in importance its equivalent with the UWA name. During years (and realistically, almost until the death of the promotion), the belt was the centerpiece of most of the greatest matches ever seen in Naucalpan, including bouts against Perro Aguayo (1983) and Brazo de Oro (1984) that were voted "Match of the year" by the magazines "Lucha Libre" and "El Halcon", respectively.
But let's get to what really was the turning point in Villano III's career. Ever since the Fishman win, after proving himself time after time to the fans, and with the public recognition of being the son of a legend who was living up to his father's standards (and many said, even surpassing them, in terms of work quality), he started getting cheered time after time.
The gameplan of bookers Francisco J. Flores and Carlos Maynez was simple, but worked like a charm. Villano was put in week after week against the hottest rudo trio at the time (and probably ever), Los Misioneros de la Muerte: El Signo, Negro Navarro and El Texano. They would beat him up badly week after week, tearing up his mask and making him bleed. In fact, he got some of those ugly scars all over his body from those wild days, because to cause a more dramatic effect, in a technique he copied from his father, he would blade not only his forehead, but his arms and chin as well. He eventually got fed up with the Misioneros' treatment, and challenged the trio's leader, El Signo, to a hair vs. hair match.
On August 1, 1982, he defeated Signo in front of a sold out crowd of 18,000 (apx.), and after the win, the babyface reaction he got was nothing short of deafening. Right after Signo's loss, El Texano, who was the youngest member of the team, challenged Villano and suffered the same face two weeks later, on August 15, though this time the match was at the nicer looking Palacio de los Deportes in Mexico City. It was reported in the magazines to be a classic, and the crowd was said to be very healthy, in the 15,000 range, even with a major Toreo show the same day with the return of Abdullah the Butcher to Mexico, teaming with Perro Aguayo against Ray Mendoza and Carlos Colón in what was pushed in the magazines as a sure-to-be bloody showdown.
That's right, the same company put out two major shows the same day and in the same market, and both were a success at the gate. Because business was so hot, major stars like Villano III, Perro Aguayo, Texano and attractions like Abdullah were able to drag a huge number of the same fans to both shows. This was far from being a weekly happening, but they often had "must see" matches at Palacio on Sunday, while having the usual loaded Toreo show (whose weekly average for normal shows would be around 11,000), and if the cards were special enough the fans would go to both venues because they could not afford missing either show.
Those two major wins were followed up with Villano III going to New Japan (back when this was considered a huge deal by the fans) to wrestle Tiger Mask. Actually, this was his second tour there. On September 3 he challenged Tiger in Fukuoka for the WWF World Junior Heavyweight Title, falling victim to the legendary Japanese flyer in only seven minutes. It was a hot match with very good action, though way too short. But they worked well together and some months later, in November, they had another match together at El Toreo. This one was longer and went three falls, but the result was the same.
Him coming back from a Japan tour sealed the deal, and he now "officially" was a tecnico. It also helped that he was put in a team with El Solitario and Anibal (two of the biggest masked stars ever in Mexico) as his partners or "godfathers", named "Los Tres Caballeros" (The Three Gentlemen) with the gimmick of being super hero scientific masters who never cheated and defeated their enemies with grace, class and technique. In 1984 there was a second version of this team with Dos Caras replacing El Solitario.
But now Villano III being a top tecnico meant that he was bound to feud with Perro Aguayo, the company's top singles light heavyweight rudo (and top overall rudo along with Canek). On March 20, 1983, he captured the WWF World Light Heavyweight Title from Aguayo, building a bitter rivalry with the Zacatecas native. By August things had heated up so much that they had a three match series that did amazing business at the Naucalpan bullring. The 7th, Aguayo defeated V3 for the WWF LHW title. A week later, they faced in a super libre match, that ended up being a bloodfest. And the 21th, V3 defeated Aguayo in a mask vs. hair match.
In 1984 he continued on the same road, drawing greatly for title matches against a variety of opponents, to the point the promotion considered him the MVP in their year end awards.
Measuring who drew and who didn't at El Toreo is a very hard task. The promotion had access to a varied collection of native stars (both homemade stars and 60s and 70s legends who were still around) and foreign attractions (Tiger Mask, Inoki, Andre...). They also had some of the fastest workers Mexico had ever seen until then, in people like Matematico, Black Man, Super Astro and other small guys who did things that had never been seen before and drew the "workrate" audience. The promotion could choose from, and I'm not exagerating here, a "pool" of 25 or 30 different wrestlers, put them in the main event, load up the rest of card and draw 10,000 to 12,000 easily.
For instance, there was shows that were so loaded, that the man who is considered to be the biggest star from those days, Canek, would be in the third match of a five match card, and Ray Mendoza would be in the opener. It's a very clear case of a "promotional package" being the draw, rather than "individuals". However, you could see how the true draws would be in special matches and up the attendance to 14,000 or more for title matches, and 17,000 or more for hair or mask matches. And when Aguayo and Villano were on top against each other, the attendance always was visibly up from the average.
The Aguayo-Villano feud carried on for most of the decade, and when at one point in 1988 they teamed together to feud and unmask the Black Power tag team (standard American rudo gimmick... one of them later was El Indomito a.k.a. Coco Amarillo from the AAA Payasos), it was a huge deal because the alliance was a true arch-rival dream team.
Besides Aguayo, the other two biggest opponents for Villano in the 80s were Sangre Chicana and Rambo.
José Luis Mendienta was a really talented second generation wrestler with a good look, who had a nice run with EMLL in the late 70s. Even though he was given the National Middleweight Title (who had a lot of tradition as El Santo's title) and given big profile title defenses against major stars like Anibal and Enrique Vera, he seemed to lack the charisma needed to be a top star and draw. The company had sort of given up on him and he pretty much disappeared, returning back home and working only in his home state of Sonora, and sometimes in Arizona or Texas, until his friend Kahoz (formerly Astro Rey, who had been repackaged as a rudo with a weird and unique white mask with black details and yellow or white hair sticking out) convinced him to get a new gimmick, with the promise of a spot in El Toreo. He became Rambo, named after you know what movie, wearing military clothes and wearing either a dark green or a camouflage mask. Mendieta and Kahoz teamed with Cuchillo, and later Zandokan (who had a masked pirate gimmick), as "El Triangulo del Terror" (Triangle of Terror) and became one of the top old school rudo trios around the country. He eventually engaged in a feud with Villano over the masks, losing his' at El Toreo's "Lucha Libre birth" anniversary show on September 25, 1987. The match was heated, bloody, and got rave reviews as one of the best matches of the year.
Chicana was one of the 5 major stars at Arena Mexico and Arena Coliseo, and a wild brawling rudo along the lines of Cavernario Galindo and Perro Aguayo, though probably a better worker than either. He had even represented EMLL at shows at El Toreo, and teaming with Cien Caras or Satanico, and gone over major stars like Aguayo, Fishman and Canek. So, added to the curiosity of two major stars clashing, you had a little interpromotional flair. On August 14, 1989, Chicana defeated Villano for the WWF LHW title, but after and before that match, both had battled all over the country, having great brawls and drawing nice numbers, especially in the Northern Circuit (Monterrey and Nuevo Laredo) working for Carlos Elizondo, as Chicana was a huge star there. The only thing that this feud lacked to be remembered as one of Villano's high career points was a mask vs. hair match, but Chicana was too busy losing his hair to Aguayo for bigger payoffs (since the matches, even though not as good, were bloodier and the rivalry seemed more natural).
The most remarkable feud he had during the last Toreo days was with Pegasus Kid (Chris Benoit) who is considered one of the best workers ever by practically everybody in the business. The masked Pegasus, now a WWE headliner with his real name, was a world nomad who would regularly work in Canada, Europe, Japan, the U.S. and Mexico. Benoit was put right away in a feud with Villano III, who he defeated on March 3, 1991 at El Toreo for the WWF World Light Heavyweight Title.
Thinking that it was not likely he'd come back, Pegasus lost his mask to Villano III on November 3, 1991. But Benoit liked wrestling at El Toreo, and he caused such a good impression with the office that they called him back some months later (he had other commitments in Japan) so they could revive the feud. Other remarkable Toreo bouts during the rivalry were the January 19, 1992 dream match where Villano teamed with El Hijo del Santo to defeat Pegasus and Negro Casas, and Pegasus retaining the WWF belt a week later in the main event of the "17th Anniversary Show" of the promotion. By the end of it, the feud had turned into a trios feud, as Villanos would face Pegasus and his team partners Los Cowboys (Silver King and Texano). It basically culminated on September 13, 1992 when Arturo gained back his WWF title.
Arturo was a top star and headliner at El Toreo until nearly its demise, but after Francisco Flores' death, booking and management got to bad that everybody who just stayed working there got lost in the shuffle: and that includes Dos Caras, Canek, Signo and Navarro (Texano was smart and/or lucky enough to get his career going in Japan teaming with Silver King). Some loyalists who were big (but not legendary) names and stayed until the end, never worked anywhere else at the same level again, like Enrique Vera. So Villano tried to keep his name fresh, working spot shows at Arena Mexico and Coliseo, and then jumping to AAA on January of 1993.
In AAA, Villano always worked main events and semi-main events, except in rare occasions (like Triplemania, where even Santo Jr. was in the first half of the card), and feuded with Rambo, this time building to a hair vs. mask match that was hold at Mexico City's Gimnasio Juan de la Barrera, on September 24, 1993. As a weird trivia data, the two first Villano III vs. Rambo "lucha de apuestas" (there was a third one on June 2001 in Naucalpan, this one hair vs. hair) were main eventing shows that commemorated the "anniversary of Lucha Libre", which is another way of saying "the birth of EMLL", but neither match was on EMLL and instead happened in the company's direct competitor at the time.
Soon after that match, Villano III quit because he was not happy with his push, and worked UWA again even though the place was a sinking ship and even drew a really sad 1,750 attendance for the January 1994 UWA Anniversary Show, headlined by Villanos 3 & 5 and Yamato (Tiger Chung Lee/Kim Duk) vs. Canek, Transformer (Kendo) and Gran Hamada, and with a rest of the card so uninteresting and not even worth of Arena Neza B-show status.
The promotion, however, started co-promoting with AAA and it revitalized business when they held matches like Villano and Canek vs. Konnan and Perro Aguayo (drawing 7,500 at El Toreo on May 94), and popped up business again at Arena Neza, getting regular attendances of 3,000 when the interpromotional concept was on.
But this relationship died off quickly, because the Toreo guys weren't "up to do business" (a few of the top wrestlers did not want to be jobbed out with "nothing in exchange" even though without the AAA guys, attendance would have been bad). So the Toreo promotion instead co-promoted with AAA's main rival, CMLL (formerly EMLL), that probably would be more open to "business", because they also needed the help. Villano worked a couple of shows for CMLL, but it was more of the same. UWA was practically dead and eventually ceased operations, not having a single show in January 95. Many of the guys jumped to CMLL, but as "CMLL guys" so to speak, not as "UWA guys". Others, like Villano III and his two younger brothers, jumped to AAA after a short stay in the ill-fated PROMELL.
PROMELL was the first time ever where the three younger sons of Ray Mendoza became a regular team, because during the whole Toreo run (except for some special matches, mostly during the 92-94 bad period) the team was Villanos I & IV & V, while III was positionited higher on the cards as a singles wrestler. The three brothers had teamed up quite often at El Toreo during 1994, but Villano III most of the time still was slotted in the cards higher than his brothers were.
In AAA, the Villanos were positioned right into the main events, often teaming with Fishman as a symbolic "Team Toreo" (though never billed as such) against Santo, Konnan, Aguayo, and the other top main event tecnicos that Peña's promotion had to offer. They had a good run and some nice feuds and matches, but nothing like in the "glory days". During periods of time the team had no contiuity due to injuries, and that hurt them in the end, as they never really had the chance to have a stand-out feud during their AAA run. Their two major feuds were vs. Dinamitas and Payasos, and neither was impressive. And even though they were given the AAA Americas Trios titles (defeating the makeshift team of Heavy Metal, Latin Lover and Cien Caras on March 8, 1996 at Arena Neza), they left the promotion with the belts after having never defended them (even though they lated defended them in IWRG). They were also AAA Atomicos (eight men) champions with Pierroth Jr., with those belts suffering a similar fate.
On January 96, the three brothers jumped to Promo Azteca with the promise of more money and a spot for the two younger brothers in WCW, but this was even worse. Though the whole promotion was a mess and there's not a lot of good to remember from it. When his brothers left for the US on July of 1997, Arturo kept basically wandering around Promo, and teamed with them when they were back home in between working for WCW. And again, he did nothing there, because the promotion only seemed to throw together eight guys in a match, with no rhyme or reason. Even though each and every one of those main eventers was either a draw or a great worker (and sometimes both), the matches did not draw and most of the time were as terrible and disorganized as lucha libre can get.
On July of 1998, Villano III joined CMLL. The month before that, he'd been on a long Japanese tour with FULL, mostly working with CMLL talent. Villano's jump was something that back in the mid 80s nobody would have imagined, but since years had gone by, there was no major impact. He worked as a main event rudo as part of Pierroth's Boricuas stable, with Fuerza Guerrera and others.
In a major shock, Villano III unmasked Super Astro on a 1999 Christmas card at the Auditorio de Tijuana. The news was quite a surprise both because there had been no major build up for a match of such magnitude between two of the 80s biggest Toreo stars, and because the actual match was Fishman and Lizmark vs. Villano III and Super Astro in "relevos suicidas", and everybody was sure Fishman would be the one losing, as it was common knowledge he was willing to drop the mask for a big paycheck.
During the Summer of 1999, Villano started his famous feud with Atlantis. The feud had been started around September of the previous year, but nothing happened at the time. There was a several months long build-up, featuring many matches around the CMLL World Light Heavyweight title that Atlantis had, and Villano eventually captured, as well as a hint of a mask vs. mask match on the company's 66th Anniversary Show on September 24, 1999, where Atlantis and Villano III defeated Mr. Niebla and Shocker (with the latter finally dropping his mask).
They eventually faced each other on March 17, 2000 at Arena Mexico in a classic máscara contra máscara bout that Atlantis won, revealing Villano III to be Arturo Díaz Mendoza. The bout, which was the feature match for CMLL's first PPV event, sold out Arena Mexico and won WON's Match of the Year honors. The match had incredible drama and heat, and super work and psychology, as well as one of the best major match finishes in recent lucha libre history, and it truly is one of the 10 biggest mask vs. mask matches ever in Mexico.
It's interesting to note that Villano III was originally thought to be losing his mask vs. Anibal in the late 80s, at the Monumental de Monterrey under Carlos Elizondo, but apparently, he was asking for a money sum out of this world, which reading between the lines tells us that he realized it was not the right time to lose the hood.
Villano III's unmasking revealed a facially old and beaten up man, who resembled his father during his latest run at El Toreo. After a series of TV skits, where Villano, still a rudo, thanked the fans and his father for all the great moments in his career, a turn could be seen coming a mile away. Pierroth then "fired him" from the Boricuas as, for weeks, Villano refused to get involved in massive post-match tecnico beatings, even though he did not help either. So Boricuas eventually turned on him, with the claims he'd turned "soft". So we had Arturo debuting as a tecnico on April 28 teaming with none other than his two former nemesis, Atlantis and Perro Aguayo, against Pierroth, Shocker and Mascara Año 2000.
This gave a new life to Arturo's career, and during the first months he had in fact came out as the major winner of the mask vs. mask match. Had a several months long feud with against Pierroth and Máscara 2000, teaming with Aguayo, and eventually taking out Jesús Reyes' hair in a cage match on August 4.
By this point Villano still was a good worker, but his skills were diminishing quickly due to age and all the injuries he'd suffered due to working a highly demanding style during decades. The family also suffered a major blow when the older brother, José de Jesus, who worked as Villano I, died on January 4, 2001, with the cause of death being a brain hemorrhage. This was the third major loss in the family, after the deaths of mother Lupita in 1986, and the 1989 death of brother José Alfredo (Villano II), which was publicized as being due wrestling injuries but during years has been rumoured to have been a suicide.
A few months after Ray Mendoza's death, The Villano family had a bitter departure from CMLL, citing their non existant push as the reason for it. During interviews, they claimed that they weren't even getting enough dates to sustain their families, so they became independent contractors. The brothers instead worked all over the Republic, even though they weren't such stars any longer, nor were they the superworkers they used to be, though the younger ones still are very competent wrestlers. Villano III can still work a good mat-based match, but due to age and injuries, he's lost his famous quickness and explosive timing.
CMLL brought back Villano IV & Villano V in 2007, and III joined them to reunite trio. It initially appeared the younger Villanos had been brought back for mask matches with bigger CMLL stars as a last hurrah, but injuries delayed their feud plans. The Villanos continue to hang around CMLL, but are involved nothing of note.
Villano III, sadly, looks like somebody who is overstaying his welcome, and would have put on a classier end to a fantastic career should have retired after a year or year and a half-long tour as an unmasked babyface. Villano III should announce his retirement and get a retirement cermony before his use to CMLL exhausts again, but he appears to be a guy who will continue wrestling until no one books him anymore.
Villano III said have won about 140 mask and 100 hairs. He has only lost 2 matches, the mask vs Atlantis and his hair shaved vs LA Park. In february 2012 there is a program scheduled to celebrate his 40 years of wrestling. His 2 sons are going to make their debut in a demo olimpic wrestling

IP: Logged
jdw
Member
Member # 622

Icon 1 posted      Profile for jdw   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by clawmaster64:
quote:
Originally posted by Steve Yohe:
Is Apter a better pick than Stanley Weston? I know that Apter is known & liked by just about everyone but does that make hin a HOF'er.

I think Weston being on the ballot will hurt Apter.
Weston deserves it more than Apter. In fact, people like King and Saks deserve it more than Apter. It really should be "London Publishing" to honor all of them. If not the entire company, then Weston should go in first.
IP: Logged
Seven
Member
Member # 3904

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Seven     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I don't really disagree with that at all John, but in talking to voters over the last couple of days the new rules where only five votes can be cast for non-wrestlers, combined with both Apter and Weston being on the ballot will probably ensure that neither guy gets in. I suspect Apter will get more votes, but less votes than last year. In principle I agree that London Publishing as a whole would be better, but I almost feel like the only way the magazines get represented at this point is as an overlooked historical figure(entity?).
IP: Logged
jdw
Member
Member # 622

Icon 1 posted      Profile for jdw   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I don't have a problem with anything that causes Apter to *not* get in before Weston or "London Publishing". So if the 5 votes causes people to slow down and think about it a bit more, I'm fine with it.
IP: Logged
jdw
Member
Member # 622

Icon 1 posted      Profile for jdw   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Steve Yohe:
Over the last year I've been watching a lot of WWE wrestling, old & new. I like the classic channel & I've seen most of the PPVs. I'm a little behind but I'm trying to keep in touch with today's wrestling. Also bought a lot of DVDs.

This year I'm voting for Brock Lesnar. There are a lot of names in the HOF who got in mainly because of their reputation as shooter/hookers/rippers. You know guys like Assirati & Karl Gotch. Well no one in the history of pro wrestling has risked his tough guy reputation & skills more in public shoot situations (exception might be Hodge doing pro boxing) than Brock Lesnar and he was good enough to make it to the top level of MMA. I also love his matches in pro wrestling and he's good box office. To me, a lot of WWE names are just company creations, but Lesnar could work anywhere, and at any time, in any country...and be a top wrestling star. He is a major deal and I voted for him. Might be a fan boy type of thing, but I did it.--Steve Yohe

It's a Pro Wrestling Hall of Fame. Who cares if Brock worked MMA. It's a bit like Ventura being Gov: not relevant to Pro Wrestling.
IP: Logged
BERT from NJ
Member
Member # 4090

Icon 1 posted      Profile for BERT from NJ     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I disagree jdw, today's UFC is closer to the WWWF I grew up on than today's WWE. Not in the ring style obviously, but in the matchmaking, contender build up, and building grudges.

I've gone back and forth with Seven on this one, but I was around for Ken Patera's career and saw most of it. He's like a Don Mattingly to me, perennial all-star, even had an MVP year, but didn't last long enough, and never really carried a territory. He may have been a main foil wherever he went, but just didn't do it long enough. And that last WWF run where he faced Hogan, he was the sidekick in that program.

clawmaster, I'm on board with your 3 picks

Agree that London Publishing needs to be recognized. Ironically, I also believe that by voting for Bill Apter, voters may be subconsciously voting for "Apter Mags" so I'm cool with any variation listed above.

--------------------
"Kneel before Zod"
General Zod

"You're a little out of order yourself-You insulted him a little bit, you insulted him A LITTLE BIT"
Jimmy the Gent Conway

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.
Edmund Burke

IP: Logged
Seven
Member
Member # 3904

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Seven     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I think the Hogan thing is really just an addendum when talking about Patera. It's cool to note that he had title shots against all of those guys but obviously some of them meant more than others.

On the other hand I would be interested to see the list of guys who had title shots against Billy Graham, Bob Backlund, Hulk Hogan, Bruno, Terry Funk, Harley Race, Ric Flair and Dusty Rhodes who aren't in the Hall of Fame. There might be some, but I'm not sure who they would be off hand.

I would also be interested to see if there is any other wrestler in history other than Ken Patera who headlined the Mid-South Coliseum, The Kiel Auditorium, The Philly Spectrum, Madison Square Garden, The Boston Garden and Toronto Maple Leaf Gardens ten times or more? If so who are they, and are they in the Hall of Fame?

I have a cliff notes spiel for Patera that I could rattle off, but those are the sort of questions I would seriously like to see answered for those who don't think he should be in. I understand the arguments against him, but to me he passes every test I have put him through.

I actually wish Dave would just include MMA into the equation outright at this point. He covers it a ton in the newsletter and it is obvious people are taking MMA work into consideration with certain guys when they vote. I don't buy the argument at all that they are the same thing or that UFC is closer to the WWWF of old than modern WWE is, but I don't even think Lesnar would be on the ballot without the MMA connection (not yet anyway) and it just seems easier to say "MMA and wrestling are on the table" as far as candidates go. I know their was an MMA wing attempted and scrubbed for whatever reason, I just really wish it hadn't been.

IP: Logged
Matt Farmer from WA
Member
Member # 1177

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Matt Farmer from WA     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by jdw:
quote:
Originally posted by Steve Yohe:
Over the last year I've been watching a lot of WWE wrestling, old & new. I like the classic channel & I've seen most of the PPVs. I'm a little behind but I'm trying to keep in touch with today's wrestling. Also bought a lot of DVDs.

This year I'm voting for Brock Lesnar. There are a lot of names in the HOF who got in mainly because of their reputation as shooter/hookers/rippers. You know guys like Assirati & Karl Gotch. Well no one in the history of pro wrestling has risked his tough guy reputation & skills more in public shoot situations (exception might be Hodge doing pro boxing) than Brock Lesnar and he was good enough to make it to the top level of MMA. I also love his matches in pro wrestling and he's good box office. To me, a lot of WWE names are just company creations, but Lesnar could work anywhere, and at any time, in any country...and be a top wrestling star. He is a major deal and I voted for him. Might be a fan boy type of thing, but I did it.--Steve Yohe

It's a Pro Wrestling Hall of Fame. Who cares if Brock worked MMA. It's a bit like Ventura being Gov: not relevant to Pro Wrestling.
I gotta agree John, now I know this may sound kind of blasfemos but some guys like Assirati (though being tough meant more in another era), Danny Hodge and even Kurt Angle got in more based on their athletic credentials than they did for their wrestling career. Hodge was a good worker, and very well respected/feared. But did he have a Hall of Fame professional wrestling career? I don't know if I could say yes to that, and it would be harder to say yes if I were to compare his professional career against some of his contemporaries. Now I realize a huge portion of voters from his era LOVE Hodge, so that may be enough to say yes. Same goes for Kurt Angle.
IP: Logged
jdw
Member
Member # 622

Icon 1 posted      Profile for jdw   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by BERT from NJ:
I disagree jdw, today's UFC is closer to the WWWF I grew up on than today's WWE. Not in the ring style obviously, but in the matchmaking, contender build up, and building grudges.

UFC is closer to the boxing that I grew up with. Boxing isn't in the WON Pro Wrestling Hall of Fame. One is sport, the other is fake entertainment that we all love.


quote:
Agree that London Publishing needs to be recognized. Ironically, I also believe that by voting for Bill Apter, voters may be subconsciously voting for "Apter Mags" so I'm cool with any variation listed above.
I think voting for Apter to recognize Apter Mags is a massive disrespect to the rest of the people who made the London Publishing magazines successful. If we want to recognize all of them, the Publisher/Owner is a better representative, and we would be far better off simply doing "London Publishing" to recognize from Weston on down.

Voting in Apter would be a bit like voting in Larry M to represent St Louis rather than... you know... Sam. :/

IP: Logged
jdw
Member
Member # 622

Icon 1 posted      Profile for jdw   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Seven:
On the other hand I would be interested to see the list of guys who had title shots against Billy Graham, Bob Backlund, Hulk Hogan, Bruno, Terry Funk, Harley Race, Ric Flair and Dusty Rhodes who aren't in the Hall of Fame. There might be some, but I'm not sure who they would be off hand.

This would be a brutal list. Here's Flair:

1981
Bob Brown
Jimmy Snuka
Masked Superstar
Tommy Rich
Ole Anderson
Mr. Wrestling II
The Superstar
Mike Jackson
Al Madril
Steve O
Porkchop Cash
Charlie Cook
Mike Graham
Sgt. Slaughter
Ron Fuller
Iron Sheik
David Von Erich
Ivan Koloff
Austin Idol
Buzz Tyler
Super Destroyer
Pierre Martel

Remember: he got the title late in the year.

1982 (New guys only)
John Studd
Rufus Jones
Dick Slater
Kerry Von Erich
Barry Windham
Butch/Bruce Reed
Leroy Brown
Jimmy Golden
The Spoiler
Richard Blood / Tito Santana
Paul Jones
Bob Armstrong
Brett Sawyer
Rocky Johnson
Dewey Robertson
Angelo Mosca
Jay Youngblood
Jake Roberts
Paul Orndorff
Sweet Brown Sugar
Mike George
Mark Romero
Invader I
Carlos Colon
Jack Veneno
Ron Bass
Terry Gibbs
Buddy Rose
Manny Fernandez
Jimmy Valiant

A lot of the guys from 1981 were also getting title shots in 1982.

The list might be "smaller" when he gets to 1986-89 because he a House Champion, no longer touring, working a limited number of feuds/series a year, and guys like Barry and Brad Armstrong and Ron Garvin would have by earlier years, so maybe only a few a year like Lex and Jimmy Garvin and Brian Pillman would get added here and there. But...

That's 52 in a year and a handful of months. Maybe I double counted a couple, and in turn it's likely that the match listing at wrestling-titles.com are missing a few challengers. My guess is that if we went all the way up to 7/91 (essentially the end of Flair era of dominating the NWA Title), we'll find 100+ non-HOF challengers.

And that's just Flair. Records are spotty going backwards from there, but there will be hundreds for the NWA Title.

For Backlund and Hogan (covering 1978-1991), my guess is that less than half of the challengers are in the HOF. Probably well under half.

IP: Logged
Seven
Member
Member # 3904

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Seven     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
My point may have been poorly written. I wasn't asking "who had at least one title shot against one of these guys and isn't in the HoF?" My point was who - other than Patera - had at least one title shot against all of those guys and isn't in. Drastically different things.
IP: Logged
jdw
Member
Member # 622

Icon 1 posted      Profile for jdw   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Seven:
My point may have been poorly written. I wasn't asking "who had at least one title shot against one of these guys and isn't in the HoF?" My point was who - other than Patera - had at least one title shot against all of those guys and isn't in. Drastically different things.

Ah... check.

Could be cheeky and add in shots against Baba (PWF) and Inoki (NWF) as well. Of course Baba had given up "world" title status at the time, and Inoki's was always kind of gray area. But the top titles in a nation of 110M+ at the time of his shots... nothing to sneeze at. Bigger than the biggest territory in the US at the time, and probably bigger than any two territories added together like the WWF+AWA.

IP: Logged
clawmaster64
Member
Member # 743

Icon 1 posted      Profile for clawmaster64     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Yohe & jdw have convinced me not to vote for Apter. Weston is now a possibility.

--------------------
"We were so close, there was no room
We bled inside each others wounds
We all had caught the same disease
And we all sang the songs of peace"-- Melanie Safka

IP: Logged
Crimson Mask from FL
Administrator
Member # 10449

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Crimson Mask from FL     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Yes, Weston is actually to be blamed for starting the 'Apter mags', but that's actually a blight on his rep, not a credit. His track record before then is astounding, even just as a publisher. And he may have been the best action photographer---look at the article on the Rogers-Carpentier match from the early '60s in the Rogers RB. Look up his bio. You'll be astounded.

[ 09-11-2013, 06:46 AM: Message edited by: Crimson Mask from FL ]

--------------------
So long from the Sunshine State!

IP: Logged
jdw
Member
Member # 622

Icon 1 posted      Profile for jdw   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I don't have a problem with any of the London magazines through the late 70s that I've ever seen... with the exception of the apartment wrestling nonsense. [Wink] If you were a fan of one territory and didn't have access to others via TV, PWI, Sports Review Wrestling, Inside Wrestling and The Wrestler were all solid within the kayfabe world of pro wrestling. It would have been nice if they were more timely, but Stuart Saks explained that years ago in an interview in a fashion that was perfectly reasonable. Was there goofy stuff in there? Sure. But it's pro freaking wrestling: the business itself is goofy, as are all of us who like it. Hard to knock those London mags for being no more goofy that we were.
IP: Logged
Crimson Mask from FL
Administrator
Member # 10449

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Crimson Mask from FL     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Eh. They were at least a whole strata goofier/cheesier than all Weston's previous stuff. I'm not sure but I think the formula of the 'default' being making up the stories around the pictures got started at that point, not before, and it was not a 'good' thing. Sure it always happened, but the proportions were different.

--------------------
So long from the Sunshine State!

IP: Logged
C.C. Milani from NY
Member
Member # 9769

Icon 1 posted      Profile for C.C. Milani from NY     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by clawmaster64:
Yohe & jdw have convinced me not to vote for Apter. Weston is now a possibility.

Hopefully I can change your mind. Apter was driving force behind those magazines. He had the vision, took the pictures, wrote the stories, the works. Apter was The Beatles and Weston was Brian Epstein.
IP: Logged
Crimson Mask from FL
Administrator
Member # 10449

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Crimson Mask from FL     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by C.C. Milani from NY:
Apter was The Beatles Monkees and Weston was Brian Epstein, Elvis, Frank Sinatra and Bing Crosby.

Fixed.



[ 09-12-2013, 04:37 PM: Message edited by: Crimson Mask from FL ]

--------------------
So long from the Sunshine State!

IP: Logged
PeteF3
Member
Member # 1298

Icon 1 posted      Profile for PeteF3     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Having gone through a lot of Boxing & Wrestling Illustrateds at Notre Dame's library some time ago, there was a LOT of stuff in there that was goofier than anything I've read in any Apter mag.

Like what? Like Dr. Jerry Graham's hobby as a hypnotist--and what happened the one time he tried using his powers during a match. His opponent was bald and Graham ended up mesmerizing himself due to a reflection from the shine of his head, forcing him to give up hypnotism as an in-ring strategy.

Like the way-too-detailed write-up of George Ringo, the Wrestling Beatle, who started going by his "real name" after previously using the "pseudonym" Bob Anthony. And how he was born in Liverpool, New York.

Like the even-more-detailed write-up of "Beatnik Rick." Enough said about that one. That was from one of the last issues to have wrestling content, maybe the last.

Like other stuff that I can sort of understand but still came off weird--literally every article profiling a wrestler delved deeply into their dating lives while still keeping kayfabe.

This not meant as an endorsement of Apter's candidacy nor as speaking out against Weston's, but the Weston mags had some goofy, goofy ****. That said, I would still vote for him over Apter if I voted for either one.

IP: Logged
Steve Yohe
Member
Member # 302

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Steve Yohe     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
If voting for Apter & Weston means that noone can vote for Jesse Ventura...I say vote for Apter & Weston.

In that section, the only no brainer is Takashi Matsunaga.--Yohe

IP: Logged
Marcus K. Fabian
Member
Member # 69831

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Marcus K. Fabian     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'm finding myself wanting to vote for Mark Lewin. Anyone have any attendance figures from his various headline runs? Or at least results from Australia, Asia, etc. not in the Lewin record books floating around online?
IP: Logged
Crimson Mask from FL
Administrator
Member # 10449

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Crimson Mask from FL     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Might be some otherwise unknown Oz results if you search Lewin on the Thesz board the last year or two.

--------------------
So long from the Sunshine State!

IP: Logged
  This topic comprises 3 pages: 1  2  3   

Quick Reply
Message:

HTML is enabled.
UBB Code is enabled.

Instant Graemlins
   


Post New Topic  New Poll  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | WrestlingClassics.com Home Page

Click here to see the WCMB Rules and Regulations

Powered by UBB.classic™ 6.7.3