WrestlingClassics.com Message Board Post New Topic  New Poll  Post A Reply
my profile | directory login | register | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» WrestlingClassics.com Message Board » WON Information Forum » Yohe rating the HOF members (Page 2)

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!   This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2   
Author Topic: Yohe rating the HOF members
Tatsuya
Member
Member # 80195

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Tatsuya     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Superstar Billy Graham at 4.5 and The Road Warriors at 7.3 is interesting. Maybe the Roadies were better in ring performers than Graham but I never thought they were all that good. Were the other criteria so much in favor toward the Roadies that it warrants such a huge gap between them? I never seen too much evidence that the Roadies were better draws than Graham and definitely can't see them being more influential than Graham.
IP: Logged
francescofuoco
Member
Member # 126538

Icon 1 posted      Profile for francescofuoco     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
People, I would like to know what are your votes about newest inductes and also know what are your votes of people of 2017's ballot.
OSJ, I'd like to know your votes.

[ 03-06-2018, 01:55 PM: Message edited by: francescofuoco ]

IP: Logged
francescofuoco
Member
Member # 126538

Icon 1 posted      Profile for francescofuoco     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
This is what Steve Yohe wrote about Graham in the topic of WON 2016.

-He was a source from the early years of the Observer & Dave was a body builder. Everyone has to be a mark for something. For Dave it was Billy Graham & Ric Flair. (That's Ok. I'm a Destroyer fan boy.)

Yeah.. He drew as WWF champ but he was working with the top babyfaces in the world: Sammartino, Mil Mascaras, Dusty Rhodes, Peter Maivia, & Bob Backlund. The NY fans hadn't had a heel champion for any length of time since 1963 (14 years). It was a face promotion & the fans probably felt there could be a title change on every show. He was a cool heel & NY hadn't seen one since Rogers.

He raged on the WWE when he couldn't make money off of it....and he loved Vince when he was getting his Doctor bills paid. And that went back & forth a bunch of times....depending on the money.

I have a lot of reasons to think he wasn't a HOF'er. But he got in without a vote or a argument.

I've been around him, and it's hard to dislike him...but he's not my hero...and I don't trust his character.-

IP: Logged
Steve Yohe
Member
Member # 302

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Steve Yohe     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'm not in favor of pulling anyone out of the HOF....once your voted in....your in. It's one of the big reasons you can't make mistakes.

As for Diablo Valasco....what other wrestler got in for just being a trainer....and is that a legit category for the WON HOF. I don't remember if he was in the non-wrestler group, like a performer. He had to be been picked by Dave, because an normal voter can't get the info. There is no way to prove anything....you have to take someone's opinion.

The only thing like that is the Iowa HOF picking Tragos & naming the hall after him. They sure put a lot of trust in Thesz opinion. That's why it took Londos like 20 years in get in. Is Rocca in yet?

Farmer Burns training Frank Gotch....is that want got him in the HOF. Would he be getting credit for that....more that being a wrestler.

Oki Shikina trained Rikidozan & Mr Moto and a ton of other people in Hawaii. Should we be thinking about him.

How much credit can a trainer take for developing a star? A lot of old wrestlers claimed they trained themselves by just wrestling. Are we going to admit all the teachers at the WWE dojos or any of the Japan dojos?

Are we supposed to admit every star with his original trainer? Every wrestler has a trainer it seems.

What about all the guys trained that don't cut it in the pros or who suck? Does that hold a trainer back from being in the hall? Can you put that negative into the trainer's record? Well no....because trainers don't have records. You have to take someone's word, that someone belongs. If we did that...there would be a 1,000 people in the hall.

I think someone got to Dave with the Diablo Valasco idea....and he fell for it. It sounds good...maybe...but opens up a can of problems.

It's another reason for Dave getting more help in putting performers & insiders in....with out a group of smart people helping him. Historian types...who understand the whole picture & will lesson to arguments. If he made that selection process more democratic, it would add more interest. (I would have Matt & John in that group & me.) And it decreases the chances of making a mistake.

I don't think trainers, if they have no other function, should be in the WON HOF. It creates too many problems....in my view.--Steve Yohe

[ 03-12-2018, 04:17 AM: Message edited by: Steve Yohe ]

IP: Logged
Steve Yohe
Member
Member # 302

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Steve Yohe     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'm happy I created a 10 point system were no one could possibly get a 10. (Well it's a John Williams concept.) In today's world, WON readers are used to a 5 star system where Dave gives a number of 5 each year and is now giving 6...and 6.2....in A 5 STAR SYSTEM? It is supposed to be a system to describe how you feel about a match. It's not a contest. In 5 years, Dave will be giving out 8 stars & it will mean nothing.

I gave Londos 9.9. Today I would change that to 9.8. Just to keep the system creditable. And to give hope to FALLGUY readers who think someone could have been a bigger star than Jim Londos. (Well I'll wait for that.)

In this system no one can get a 0 either. There are people, mostly minor insiders, who will make an argument about a local jobber....who never drew a dime or got pushed enough to even beat another jobber...saying he should be in the Hall...because he worked as hard as anyone 7 nights a week for 25 years...and put over all the stars...who would be nothing without out wrestlers like him....getting them over....and he was a good person, who never complained about putting up the ring before the matches....and he cried so cool after ever loss....and he lived down the street, from the guy making the argument in a one bedroom apartment. That wrestler I would give a 0.3....maybe a 0.4. Unless I was trying to make a joke.----Steve Yohe

[ 03-06-2018, 02:40 PM: Message edited by: Steve Yohe ]

IP: Logged
francescofuoco
Member
Member # 126538

Icon 1 posted      Profile for francescofuoco     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Steve Yohe:
I'm happy I created a 10 point system were no one could possibly get a 10. (Well it's a John Williams concept.) In today's world, WON readers are used to a 5 star system where Dave gives a number of 5 each year and is now giving 6...and 6.2....in A 5 STAR SYSTEM? It is supposed to be a system to describe how you feel about a match. It's not a contest. In 5 years, Dave will be giving out 8 stars & it will mean nothing.
I gave Londos 9.9. Today I would change that to 9.8. Just to keep the system creditable. And to give hope to FALLGUY readers who think someone could have been a bigger star than Jim Londos. (Well I'll wait for that.)

In this system no one can get a 0 either. There are people, mostly minor insiders, who will make an argument about a local jobber....who never drew a dime or got pushed enough to even beat another jobber...saying he should be in the Hall...because he worked as hard as anyone 7 nights a week for 25 years...and put over all the stars...who would be nothing without out wrestlers like him....getting them over....and he was a good person, who never complained about putting up the ring before the matches....and he cried so cool after ever loss....and he lived down the street, from the guy making the argument in a one bedroom apartment. That wrestler I would give a 0.3....maybe a 0.4. Unless I was trying to make a joke.----Steve Yohe

I fully agree with you.

[ 03-06-2018, 02:43 PM: Message edited by: francescofuoco ]

IP: Logged
OSJ from NM by way of WA
Member
Member # 6136

Icon 1 posted      Profile for OSJ from NM by way of WA   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by francescofuoco:
People, I would like to know what are your votes about newest inductes and also know what are your votes of people of 2017's ballot.
OSJ, I'd like to know your votes.

I assume that you mean for the 2017 WON? Surely.
Keep in mind that I do strategic voting, I might not vote for someone that I really want to see get in if they are in no danger of being dropped off the ballot. This year I had to leave off three British guys that I would normally have voted for as I felt that those votes were needed elsewhere to help keep candidates from being dropped. So here's who actually got my votes:

Enrique Torres
Mark Lewin
Sputnik Monroe
Bearcat Wright
Tatsuya Naito
Akira Taue
Cien Caras
Karloff Largarde
Villano III
Blue Panther

Non Wrestlers:
Gary Hart
Stanley Weston

Now as to who got in... I've said elsewhere I have no problem whatsoever. Our problem with the WON HOF isn't so much who gets in as it is who doesn't... Yes, it's supposed to be for the true elite, but when the truly elite are kept out due to ignorance rather than anything else, than we have a problem. It's a fixable problem, but problem none the less. When the best pure wrestler of our lifetime isn't in due to voter ignorance, then that's a problem. Of course, I'm talking about Volk Han, and anyone watching a compilation of his matches has a tendency to just sit there in stunned silence at what they just witnessed. That he's not in and Jackie Fargo is, somewhat rankles me.

--------------------
"What you say sounds reasonable enough," said the man, "but I refuse to be bribed. I am here to whip people, and whip them I shall!")
-Franz Kafka - The Trial

IP: Logged
francescofuoco
Member
Member # 126538

Icon 1 posted      Profile for francescofuoco     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by OSJ from NM by way of WA:
quote:
Originally posted by francescofuoco:
People, I would like to know what are your votes about newest inductes and also know what are your votes of people of 2017's ballot.
OSJ, I'd like to know your votes.

I assume that you mean for the 2017 WON? Surely.
Keep in mind that I do strategic voting, I might not vote for someone that I really want to see get in if they are in no danger of being dropped off the ballot. This year I had to leave off three British guys that I would normally have voted for as I felt that those votes were needed elsewhere to help keep candidates from being dropped. So here's who actually got my votes:

Enrique Torres
Mark Lewin
Sputnik Monroe
Bearcat Wright
Tatsuya Naito
Akira Taue
Cien Caras
Karloff Largarde
Villano III
Blue Panther

Non Wrestlers:
Gary Hart
Stanley Weston

Now as to who got in... I've said elsewhere I have no problem whatsoever. Our problem with the WON HOF isn't so much who gets in as it is who doesn't... Yes, it's supposed to be for the true elite, but when the truly elite are kept out due to ignorance rather than anything else, than we have a problem. It's a fixable problem, but problem none the less. When the best pure wrestler of our lifetime isn't in due to voter ignorance, then that's a problem. Of course, I'm talking about Volk Han, and anyone watching a compilation of his matches has a tendency to just sit there in stunned silence at what they just witnessed. That he's not in and Jackie Fargo is, somewhat rankles me.

In reality I meant a vote in the same way as Steve Yohe did in the first post, or I did last days, for modern inductes.

However these are my votes to wrestlers that I know, in some year I will give my judgement on every other.

Dynamite Kid 6.5
Ric Flair 8.5
Stan Hansen 8
Bret Hart 7.3
Hulk Hogan 9
Antonio Inoki 8.6
Mitsuharu Misawa 8.2
Dusty Rhodes 7.3
Rikidozan 8.8
Bruno Sammartino 8.6
El Santo 8.6
Randy Savage 7.7
Ricky Steamboat 7
Lou Thesz 9.5
Big Van Vader 7
Toshiaki Kawada 7
Jushin Liger 6.9
Steve Austin 8.3
Mick Foley 6.8
Kenta Kobashi 7.5
Chris Benoit 6.5 (wrestling career)
Shawn Michaels 7.3
Undertaker 7.2
Kurt Angle 6.4
HHH 7
Eddie Guerrero 6.5
The Rock 7.8
Chris Jericho 6.6
Rey Mysterio 6.9
John Cena 7.8
Hiroshi Tanahashi 7
Brock Lesnar 6.9
Shinsuke Nakamura 6.4
Bryan Danielson 6.4
Sting 6.3
AJ Styles 6.4
Minoru Suzuki 4.5

IP: Logged
OSJ from NM by way of WA
Member
Member # 6136

Icon 1 posted      Profile for OSJ from NM by way of WA   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Since I'm inherently lazy and also because I think you did a good job with it, I'm just going to grab your list and comment where we have significant differences. A difference of .5 is not,to my mind in any way significant and hardly worthy of discussion.

quote:


Dynamite Kid 6.5 No, I'm going 8.5 due to massive influence on the next generation.

Ric Flair 8.5
Stan Hansen 8
Bret Hart 7.3
Hulk Hogan 9
Antonio Inoki 8.6
Mitsuharu Misawa 8.2
Dusty Rhodes 7.3
Rikidozan 8.8
Bruno Sammartino 8.6
El Santo 8.6
Randy Savage 7.7

Ricky Steamboat 7 Steamer's in 8.5-9.0 territory for being the best babyface who ever lived. Funny thing is, he may have even been better as a heel.
Lou Thesz 9.5

Big Van Vader 7
Toshiaki Kawada 7

Jushin Liger 6.9 No, just no. The best junior of all time deserves a lot more than 6.9, really, Liger's in 9.0 or better territory.

Steve Austin 8.3
Mick Foley 6.8
Kenta Kobashi 7.5
Chris Benoit 6.5 (wrestling career)
Shawn Michaels 7.3
Undertaker 7.2
Kurt Angle 6.4
HHH 7
Eddie Guerrero 6.5
The Rock 7.8
Chris Jericho 6.6
Rey Mysterio 6.9
John Cena 7.8

Hiroshi Tanahashi 7 Should be a full point higher, one of the best, if not the best of his generation. Single-handedly built NJPW into the #2 promotion in the world even as AJPW and NOAH were going down the drain despite having considerable advantages. The guy is still putting on ***** matches when most people would be recuperating in bed. He's one for the ages and we won't see his like again anytime soon.

Brock Lesnar 6.9 Any rating that puts this lazy turd in the HOF is too high.

Shinsuke Nakamura 6.4 A year ago my favorite wrestler, now, he's practically unwatchable. If not careful he could easily drop below 6.0


Bryan Danielson 6.4
Sting 6.3
AJ Styles 6.4
Minoru Suzuki 4.5 I sure don't want to be in the same building when you tell Minoru Suzuki that he doesn't make the cut... ;-) Seriously, I'd give the guy something in the low 6's.

Here's my problem with this sort of rating, I'm more of an absolutist. A guy is either a HOFr or he's not, to me there aren't degrees of difference. Yes, I know that Jim Londos is much more important to wrestling than Superst*r Billy Graham, but at the end of the day they're both HOFRS, so what does it matter? I guess it can be fun arguing percentage points, but I'd rather focus energy on discussing guys that are getting overlooked.


[/QB]



--------------------
"What you say sounds reasonable enough," said the man, "but I refuse to be bribed. I am here to whip people, and whip them I shall!")
-Franz Kafka - The Trial

IP: Logged
francescofuoco
Member
Member # 126538

Icon 1 posted      Profile for francescofuoco     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Thanky you OSJ.
Talking about Dynamite Kid, however, arguing with Matt Farmer some time ago, now I think that his historical importance is both positive and negative.
Positive because he inspired so many guys, and he was, with Sayama a revolutionary.
Negative because his style was also responsible for injuries, in fact, today he is in bad physical conditions, and considering also the case of Benoit.

IP: Logged
OSJ from NM by way of WA
Member
Member # 6136

Icon 1 posted      Profile for OSJ from NM by way of WA   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by francescofuoco:
Thanky you OSJ.
Talking about Dynamite Kid, however, arguing with Matt Farmer some time ago, now I think that his historical importance is both positive and negative.
Positive because he inspired so many guys, and he was, with Sayama a revolutionary.
Negative because his style was also responsible for injuries, in fact, today he is in bad physical conditions, and considering also the case of Benoit.

That's precisely why I rated him higher, influence is influence, whether good or bad in the long run and no one can dispute Billington's influence (which is probably 50/50 when you get right down to it, we've been shown that you can work a high-flying style relatively safely, or you can go out there and be an idiot about it.)

--------------------
"What you say sounds reasonable enough," said the man, "but I refuse to be bribed. I am here to whip people, and whip them I shall!")
-Franz Kafka - The Trial

IP: Logged
Steve Yohe
Member
Member # 302

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Steve Yohe     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hiroshi Tanahashi 7

Yohe: Is that the number I gave him 14 years ago? I would go higher, but I want to think about it.

Dynamite Kid 6.5

Yohe: How many main events in MSG did he have? How do you measure influence? I thought it Sayama who did all the influencing? I knew someone at the PWHF who thought George the Animal Steele was an influence. He was Jr in Japan & tag team wrestler in the WWF. How many PPV did he headline. It more than just work rate. It wouldn't kill me to raise the number by 0.2. He really was a creep in life. When I give a 6.5, I'm saying he is a HOF'er, but there is some arguments against him.

Ricky Steamboat

Yohe: I gave him a 7.0....that's a very solid HOF number. 8.5 to 9.0 is way over off. He'll be known for being Flair's "glove" and good title run in 1989. His famous WrestleMania match may not seem so good in the years to come. (Ok screw finish with George Steele!) He walked out on the ICC title, losing it to a terrible H. T. Man and his return to the WWF with fire breathing stuff bombed. He was mid-card for the most part in the WWF. He got hurt kind of early. I wasn't around for the mid-Atlantic stuff, but I saw film & I was reading the magazines.I don't think he is the top babyface of all time. Did you ever see Ray "Thunder" Stern. How about Londos, Stecher, Gotch, Bruno, Inoki, Fujinami, Caddock, & a bunch others.


Jushin Liger

Yohe: He was a JR. How many NJW main events did he work? Was he in a Dome show main event? He was fill on undercards. 9.0...was he Rikidozan, Baba or Inoki? I gave him that number 14 years ago. Might move him up by 0.3, but he hasn't meant anything to me in years.

Yohe: The WWE took Nakamura, the hottest wrestler in the world, and turned him into just another WWE performer. I saw that coming. Poor Kenta.

Yohe: I thought Suzuki was nothing when he was young working the shoot style. Like him a lot better last few years working in AJW & NJW. I think he's borderline around a 6. John Williams would kill me for that. But Suzuki is very close. And I would say that to Suzuki face, if he asked me & he was out of character.

I'm not really into this at the moment, but I responded because John is a friend who I respect. Once you do something...you move on...and don't want to go back.---Yohe

[ 03-11-2018, 03:12 AM: Message edited by: Steve Yohe ]

IP: Logged
Steve Ogilvie
Member
Member # 5116

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Steve Ogilvie   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Steve Yohe:
I'm not in favor of pulling anyone out of the HOF....once your voted in....your in. It's one of the big reasons you can't make mistakes.

As for Diablo Valasco....what other wrestler got in for just being a trainer....and is that a legit category for the WON HOF. I don't remember if he was in the non-wrestler group, like a performer. He had to be been picked by Dave, because an normal voter can't get the info. There is no way to prove anything....you have to take someone's opinion.

The only thing like that is the Iowa HOF picking Tragos & naming the hall after him. They sure put a lot of trust in Thesz opinion. That's why it took Londos like 20 years in get in. Is Rocca in yet?

Farmer Burns taking Frank Gotch....is that want got him in the HOF. Would he be getting credit for that....more that being a wrestler.

Oki Shikina trained Rikidozan & Mr Moto and a ton of other people in Hawaii. Should we be thinking about him.

How much credit can a trainer take for developing a star? A lot of old wrestlers claimed they trained themselves by just wrestling. Are we going to admit all the teachers at the WWE dojos or any of the Japan dojos?

Are we supposed to admit every star with his original trainer? Every wrestler has a trainer it seems.

What about all the guys trained that don't cut it in the pros or who suck? Does that hold a trainer back from being in the hall? Can you put that negative into the trainer's record? Well no....because trainers don't have records. You have to take someone's word, that someone belongs. If we did that...there would be a 1,000 people in the hall.

I think someone got to Dave with the Diablo Valasco idea....and he fell for it. It sounds good...maybe...but opens up a can of problems.

It's another reason for Dave getting more help in putting performers & insiders in....with out a group of smart people helping him. Historian types...who understand the whole picture & will lesson to arguments. If he made that selection process more democratic, it would add more interest. (I would have Matt & John in that group & me.) And it decreases the chances of making a mistake.

I don't think trainers, if they have no other function, should be in the WON HOF. It creates too many problems....in my view.--Steve Yohe

I think the WON HOF should be open to accepting people in any key area of professional wrestling who were exceptional in their field. The broad, worldwide scope is what sets this HOF apart from others.

Otherwise I agree with you about opening a can of worms and your other points. But that can was opened during the first HOF class.

--------------------
"Mr 100%"

IP: Logged
francescofuoco
Member
Member # 126538

Icon 1 posted      Profile for francescofuoco     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Steve, how would you judge people like Masakatsu Funaki and Kazushi Sakuraba that are in the WON HOF because of MMA, if I am not wrong, and not pro wrestling work?
IP: Logged
K. Fabian McClinch
Member
Member # 6275

Icon 1 posted      Profile for K. Fabian McClinch     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Steve Yohe:
. . .

Hi Steve,

I agree with your history of Bill Miller. He was one of the greats of his era. . .

Where is this? I'd love to see it -- is it posted here somewhere? Miller was always one of my all-time favorites, as well.

--------------------
"It's the same all over: you fight for your life until death do you part -- and then you got it made." (Lester Young)

IP: Logged
Steve Yohe
Member
Member # 302

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Steve Yohe     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
This was a letter I wrote to Dave in an attempt to get Miller in the WON HOf. He published it. It's not really one of my bios.

Dave

It's being claimed by some that it's impossible for major wrestlers of the 60’s and 70’s to be voted into the Observer Hall of Fame. The feeling is that the electorate is over stocked with voters who do not value the events and performers that took place before 1980. I've never agreed with this theory and I would have been happy to have put Earl Caddock before the voters two years ago, thinking a major historical figure might be able to pull the trick. Last year, I was happy to see a few of the classic wrestlers of the sixties put to the test, the most major and obvious pick of the bunch was Bill Miller. It was kind of embarrassing to see him get only 19%.

Being one of a small group of fans considered a wrestling historian and the typist for Jim Melby’s Bill Miller Record Book, I feel a responsibility to do some politicking and go over Miller’s career and spell out his qualifications. I do this, not just for Miller, but because I respect the Observer Hall of Fame.

Dr. Bill Miller was a legitimate wrestler, having won a Big Ten Wrestling Championship and earned 9 letters (wrestling, football, & track) at Ohio State University. He actually was a Doctor, having majored in Veterinary medicine.

His debut took place on April 12, 1951, working for Al Haft in Columbus. The huge Miller received a push from day one and it seems that he only did one job, to Ruffy Silverstein in Chicago, the whole year. During 1952, he became a main eventer in the Ohio area, wrestling people like Primo Carnera, Johnny Valentine, and had a lasting feud with Buddy Rogers. On May 1, 1952 Miller won the AWA World Title by defeating Don Eagle at Pittsburgh. (This is a title that could be traced back to Lewis/Sonnenberg in 1929) He lost that title to Don Arnold on Sept. 2, 1952.

In 1953 and 1954, he remained in the Ohio area. He switched the Eastern Title back and forth with Buddy Rogers twice and was a major contender for Lou Thesz’s NWA world Title (9 title matches). By the end of 1954, he was a regular in St. Louis.

In 1955, he teamed with Stan Holek (Nelson) to win and lose the American Tag Title from Rogers and Great Scott, and then headline in Canada, wrestling Montreal World Champion Pat O’Connor, Antonino Rocca, Yukon Eric and Yvon Robert. On July 26 Miller once again defeated Buddy Rogers for the Eastern Title. As champion, he battled Bobo Brazil, Hans Schmidt, O’Connor and Dick Hutton before dropping the title back to Rogers on Oct. 13, 1955.

1956 saw Miller wrestle in Minneapolis for the first time and from April to Dec. moved to Northern California. He feuded with local favorite Leo Nomellini and did a major job to the footballer on July 3, 1956. It was in San Francisco that Bill first formed a team with his brother Ed Miller (well Ed Abers) to form one of the most famous teams of the time. On Aug. 14, 1956, Bill & Ed Miller defeated Bobo Brazil & Enrique Torres to win the NWA World Tag Title. They lost that title to Ben & Mike Sharpe on Oct. 23.

1957 saw the team move to Toronto to win the Canadian Tag Title from Guy & Joe Brunetti on Feb. 12, 1957 at Hamilton. He & Ed dropped the title to Whipper Watson & Pat O’Connor on May 9, 1957 in Toronto. Later in the year, Ed Miller was replaced by his real brother Dan Miller in Calgary.

In 1958 Bill reteamed with Ed in Toronto and also had single matches with Whipper Watson, Brazil, Wilber Snyder, Gene Kiniski, Thesz, George Gordienko, Illio DiPaolo, and new NWA Champion Dick Hutton. On Jan. 6 Miller defeated Pat O’Connor in Niagara Falls to get a shot at Hutton…a match he lost. He started appearing in Madison Squire Garden in Sept.

1959 was a break through year for Miller. In late Aug. he began a run that would rank him with the greatest masked men of all time. Joe Dusek, the Omaha promoter, brought Miller in as a 295lb monster under the name Dr. X. On Oct. 3, 1959, Dr. X defeated Wilber Snyder for the Omaha World Title, one of the title lines created following NWA Champ Thesz ‘s lost to Edward Carpentier in 1957. In a small town, used to crowds under 3,000, it drew 8,114 fans. Wins over Bob Ellis, Ernie Dusek, Mitsu Arakawa, Dick The Bruiser, Doug Gilbert, Kinji Shibuya, Yukon Eric, The Crusher, Hans Schmidt, Hercules Cortez, Bobby Managoff, and Nick Bockwinkel followed. Twice Verne Gagne tried to take his title and failed. Omaha under Dr. X became one of the hottest territories in the nation. Some historians even claim that Dr. X was a bigger draw than NWA champion Pat O’Connor during this period. The Omaha Dr. X came to an end on Aug. 20, 1960 when Verne Gagne unmasked him after 13 falls in a non-title death match. X doing the job, gave Verne one of his most famous victories. In Cincinnati on Oct. 22, Dr. X also lost a mask match with Bob Ellis.

He continued as champion until losing the title to Don Leo Jonathan in Omaha on Jan. 7, 1961 with 9,001 fans in attendance. He regained the title in Omaha on Feb. 4, 1961 from Jonathan, only to lose it back on April 7.

In May 1961, Miller put the mask back on & Dr X participated in the 3rd World League Tournament for JWA in Japan. His first match in country was a win over Shohei Baba. He followed that with a no contest vs Rikidozan on May 12. On May 23 he wrestled Rikidozan for the International Title but the result was a double-countout. The two wrestled again in the tournament final with Rikidozan winning via a DQ. Another International Title match on July 21 saw X do a clean job for Rikidozan which led to another unmasking.

One of the wrestlers Miller beat during the tournament was Karl Gotch, who became a close friend and workout partner. Considering Gotch’s talent as a shooter, this relationship only build on Miller’s reputation as someone not to fool with.

In Sept. 1960, Verne Gagne created the new AWA promotion in the Minneapolis/St Paul area, booking himself up as world champion. Gagne liked the old Omaha Dr. X so much, that he recycled the idea. Miller debuted as the masked Mr. M in Aug. 1961. On Oct. 17, he won the AWA US Title from Hard Boiled Haggerty, and followed that win by taking the AWA world title by defeating Verne Gagne on Jan. 9, 1962 at Minneapolis.

Miller headlined in the AWA for 8 months until losing the title and mask to boss Verne Gagne on Aug. 21, 1962. Miller then returned to Columbus.

On Aug. 31, 1962, just 10 days after dropping the AWA title, Miller and friend Karl Gotch had a the famous incident with NWA world champion Buddy Rogers in a Columbus dressing room, that led to Buddy suing both for assault. It’s never been spelled out why the confrontation happened or who was behind it, but Miller or Gotch was never punished for their actions.

On Jan. 17, 1963 Miller defeated Lou Thesz via DQ in Indianapolis. Thesz then defeated Buddy Rogers for the NWA world title on Jan. 24, 1963. The next day, Jan. 25, Thesz defended the title and defeated Bill Miller in Louisville. Miller was one of Thesz’s most popular contenders on 1963 and 1964. He main evented 13 times vs Thesz in 63 alone. On June 15, 1963, Miller vs Thesz drew 11,293 in St. Louis.

On July 20, 1963 Miller put over the great Ray Stevens in San Francisco's Cow Palace and in Oct. toured Texas. He spent much of 1964 in St. Louis.

In 1965, Miller moved to the WWWF and battled Bruno Sammartino in every major city on the East Coast, including three MSG main events that drew 17,134, 15,064 and 16,113. During 1965 and 1966, Miller wrestled Sammartino at least 34 times and even won 9 of them. He stayed in the WWWF territory until 1968. He also brought Dan Miller with him and the two won the U. S. Tag Title from Bill Watt & Gorilla Monsoon on Aug. 5, 1965 and held on to it until Feb. 21, 1966, losing to Johnny Valentine & Antonio Pugliese.

By the end of 1966, he was taking bookings in the hot Detroit territory and wrestled The Sheik, Bobo Brazil and Mark Lewin many times.

In Jan. 1968, he toured Japan again with JWA. His last night saw him and The Crusher lose a vacant International tag title match to Shohei Baba and Antonio Inoki. In May 1968 he worked for Jim Barnett in Australian. He won the IWA world tag title with Killer Kowalski and had major match with Spiros Arion, Don Denucci, Jack Brisco, Kowalski, Mario Milano, and Roy Heffernan.

Miller spent Oct. 1968 to June 1969 in San Francisco. He wrestled Ray Stevens four time in the famous Cow Palace. I’ve been told that it was this feud that helped turn Stevens face.

In 1970, Miller went back to the mask gimmick and wrestled as The Crimson Knight in St Louis. The hood survived matches with Lou Thesz, Pat O’Connor, Jack Brisco, and The Bruiser until Nov. 20, 1970 when The Crimson Knight lost an NWA title match vs Dory Funk JR and was unmasked.

In 1971, Miller toured with the IWA promotion in Japan and won the IWA world title from Thunder Sugiyama. He lost that belt to Strong Kobayashi at Duluth on June 19, 1971.

He had another Japanese tour in July 1973 for AJW. The highlight was a job for one of his main rivals for the title of greatest masked man, The Destroyer (Dick Beyer).

Miller by the late 60’s was working as a veterinarian for the the state of Ohio. As his career wore down, he worked midcard for Sam Muchnick until 1975. He was kept strong and had major matches with Billy Robinson, The Bruiser, Andre The Giant and Johnny Valentine (a St Louis Death Match). His last major main event was a job for old friend Bruno Sammartino on March 1, 1974. His last match was in Aug. 1976.

Miller was a legitimate wrestler and considered one of the best big man type workers in history. He is listed near the top of any list of masked men and was the major performer in one of wrestling’s best tag teams. He was a draw in every major territory (Ohio, Omaha, WWWF, AWA, Montreal, Toronto, San Francisco, St. Louis and Japan. At no time in a 25 year career was he not at the top of his profession. He was a singles world champion five times and held the SF NWA tag title, WWWF US Tag title and Canadian Tag Title. He was a working class wrestler, a total professional, not an owner or part of a booking situation where he could program his own career. He got booked because of his talent and ability to get over, even when it was him doing the job. Miller was respected and liked by everyone he came in contact with and I can see no argument that would keep him out of the Hall Of Fame.

His induction is endorsed by such major wrestling historians as J Michael Kenyon, Don Luce, Jim Melby, Fred Hornby, Koji Myimoto, Mark S, Hewitt, Libnan Ayoub, George Lentz, Tim Hornbaker, Haruo Yamaguchi, Jose Fernandez, Greg Oliver, Yasutoshi Ishikawa, Bob Bryla, Harry White, and Ross Schneider.


Steve Yohe

IP: Logged
K. Fabian McClinch
Member
Member # 6275

Icon 1 posted      Profile for K. Fabian McClinch     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Many thanks!

Among his other strong points, Miller was (to me, anyway) one of the few who could be equally effective as heel or face (I remember a TV tag-team match vs. the Von Brauners, and I don't even remember who Miller's partner was, but it was a pretty thrilling affair).

Didn't know about the Karl Gotch connection, but I do remember that Miller and Thesz were also good friends and wrestling/workout partners, which I'm sure also added to Miller's reputation.

[ 03-20-2018, 09:52 AM: Message edited by: K. Fabian McClinch ]

--------------------
"It's the same all over: you fight for your life until death do you part -- and then you got it made." (Lester Young)

IP: Logged
Matt Farmer from WA
Member
Member # 1177

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Matt Farmer from WA     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Steve Yohe:

I think someone got to Dave with the Diablo Valasco idea....and he fell for it. It sounds good...maybe...but opens up a can of problems.

I know I was really pushing for Diablo Velasco getting in. In fact, I'm strongly of the belief that he should be in every pro wrestling hall of fame.

While I agree in most cases training a star or two shouldn't really qualify someone for the Hall of Fame. But Diablo did more than train on or two. As a single trainer he probably has more success than anyone, ever.

Tarzan Lopez
Gory Guerrero
Cavernario Galindo
Mil Mascaras
Rolando Vera
Bobby Bonales
El Solitario
Rito Romero
Perro Aguayo
Angel Blanco
Cien Caras
Mascara Ano 2000
Universo 2000
Atlantis
Rayo de Jalisco
Rayo de Jalisco Jr
Emilio Charles
Emilio Charles Jr
Ringo Mendoza
Cachorro Mendoza
El Solar
Hiro Matsuda
Mano Negro
Vic Amezcua
Alfonso Dantes
El Satanico
Bestia Salvaje
El Dandy
El Texano
Apolo Dantes
Shocker

And so many more. Really a who's who of lucha libre and it would be hard pressed to find another trainer who's trained more legitimate Hall of Famers.

IP: Logged
Steve Yohe
Member
Member # 302

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Steve Yohe     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
You won that one, because he's in. It's final.--Yohe
IP: Logged
  This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2   

Quick Reply
Message:

HTML is enabled.
UBB Code is enabled.

Instant Graemlins
   


Post New Topic  New Poll  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | WrestlingClassics.com Home Page

Click here to see the WCMB Rules and Regulations

Powered by UBB.classic™ 6.7.3