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» WrestlingClassics.com Message Board » Professional Wrestling & General Discussion 2010 - Current » Starrcade ‘97 finish — botched because Sting didn’t have a tan (Page 1)

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Author Topic: Starrcade ‘97 finish — botched because Sting didn’t have a tan
Red Cloak
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Just listened to some Eric Bischoff interviews where he talked about this.

I bought this PPV and watched it live. I was a big WCW fan and enjoyed this build up. I lol at the explanation Bischoff gives for the finish of this match. He blames Sting’s lack of motivation, disconnectedness and physical condition for the result. Maybe Sting was a bit out of it and going through a lot, but his character didn’t talk and basically just needed to show up and go through the motions. The fans were expecting a payoff and what they got was a disaster.

I remember thinking after this happened that Hogan really won and got screwed. I think it’s pretty obvious to anyone with half a brain what happened.

Sting ruined the entire angle because he couldn’t be bothered to get a tan.

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Larry
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How much smoke have you cracked?

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cdlawrence
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It wasn't an interview, it was on his podcast 83 Weeks

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txadHZQHuss

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Pillsbury
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Yeah,I ain’t listening to that.Any excuse for Sting not rolling into that ring and smoking Hogan in relatively quick fashion is just that,an excuse.A year long build and what should’ve been the start of the next phase of the NWO angle(a proper breakup) botched because Bischoff had no control of the situation and really imo,no idea it was time to wrap up NWO.He didn’t even have enough control or demand enough respect to make sure his planned finish went down.

Blaming Sting for not being motivated or whatever is lame.I don’t care if he’s a dead man out there.For the company and the story you’re telling you needed a certain result.Not to mention it ain’t like that group they had headlining was a group of super motivated in ring workers.They WERE super motivated workers,and worked Eric.I can’t believe anybody spends their time listening to this dude.And look at him now 20 years later,a podcast about the only 83 week time frame in his life that he did anything of note professionally.

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Tatsuya
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Not exonerating Hogan or anyone else who had a hand in screwing up the 3 count but I remember watching this and thinking Sting looking pretty terrible.

Although even if Sting was jacked and tanned, Hogan would have still probably found a way to come out of the biggest show looking good

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FantasyWrestlerDrew
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Thing is even as a kid and thinking about it kayfabe wise, Sting hadn't wrestled or really done anything athletic in a year. He had to go in and win it quickly just on that alone. I think everyone expected him to have ring rust so it still stands Hogan needed to get squashed. I remember talking with Tony Schiavone a few years back and he agreed with me when I said Sting needed to go out there and just pummel Hogan. If Hogan wanted to keep heat, have Sting use the bat. That sounds like a heel move but think about it. Have Sting be violent to the point where he just blindly attacks Hogan with all that pent up aggression he had building for the year.

You could still do the title being held up the next night. Can still do everything you still did or wanted to do and Hogan would still have something to cry about the next night. Sting should have murdered Hogan in 5-7 minutes using everything including the kitchen sink.

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Red Cloak
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The right thing for WCW to do would have been Hogan losing DECISIVELY to Sting, then Nash confronts Hogan for losing the strap and setting up a match between them.

How they would work Goldberg into the picture? He needs to be fed heels one after another never losing. Sting vs Goldberg doesn’t really fit into this equation.

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Matt Farmer from WA
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Either way it's still Bischoff's fault. Heading in they knew this was going to be the biggest night in the companies history. Which means communication between Eric and Sting should have been a major stickler.

Why wasn't the finish worked out weeks in advance? Why wasn't Hogan and Sting put into a room together in advance and everything discussed? That's what professionals do. How come Eric wasn't on the phone with Sting on nearly a weekly basis leading up to this making sure he understood he needed to be motivated.

You talk to any top guy in WWE and Vince is (or was) in constant communication with them.

The Goldberg situation is a different story and should have been held off until the Starrcade the next year.

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T. Joe Kerplunko
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yeah, after a year of having Sting's entrance be "the moment" of their weekly shows, didn't they also have Sting pretty much walk out like a normal guy instead of making some sort of special entrance for the moment?
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Portalesman
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I sold pecans to Sting that particular evening. He seemed to be in good spirits and mentioned that under no certain circumstances would be getting a tan.
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The Strike
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This ending was such BS. Sting, tan or no tan, motivated or not should have won a clean match over Hogan. It was the obvious finish. Only a complete moron would screw it up. And they did. I remember watching this with a group of friends, and we were all dumbfounded at what we just watched.
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The Strike
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quote:
Originally posted by Red Cloak:
The right thing for WCW to do would have been Hogan losing DECISIVELY to Sting, then Nash confronts Hogan for losing the strap and setting up a match between them.

How they would work Goldberg into the picture? He needs to be fed heels one after another never losing. Sting vs Goldberg doesn’t really fit into this equation.

They would have found a way to put the title on Goldberg. Sting was never a good world champion in my opinion. He was always better chasing the title.

Sting would still lose at Spring Stampede to Randy Savage and Savage would then lose to Hogan, setting up the match with Goldberg.

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Arnold_OldSchool
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quote:
Originally posted by T. Joe Kerplunko:
yeah, after a year of having Sting's entrance be "the moment" of their weekly shows, didn't they also have Sting pretty much walk out like a normal guy instead of making some sort of special entrance for the moment?

\\

I think they covered that on the pod. The rafters were for Sting to haunt and hunt the NWO. Starrcade was for him to return, walk down the aisle and kick ass.

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Machomanfan
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quote:
This ending was such BS. Sting, tan or no tan, motivated or not should have won a clean match over Hogan. It was the obvious finish. Only a complete moron would screw it up. And they did.
This.

I enjoy listning to 83 weeks but sometimes I Wonder if Bischoff himself even believes some of the things he says, like his defense of this finish, of ending Goldbergs streak, claiming that noone cares about the former champion getting a rematch against the new champion unless there is some convoluted angle involved, etc

He blamed Sting for being unmotivated and insinuated that he had some serious personal problems around this time.
That should not have mattered.

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davephlegmball
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I blame HHH
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Jarvis88
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quote:
Originally posted by Portalesman:
I sold pecans to Sting that particular evening. He seemed to be in good spirits and mentioned that under no certain circumstances would be getting a tan.

Did you suplex his cat at a gas station as well?
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Red Cloak
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quote:
Originally posted by Portalesman:
I sold pecans to Sting that particular evening. He seemed to be in good spirits and mentioned that under no certain circumstances would be getting a tan.

Couldn’t he at least sign up for a gym membership? He looked like he hadn’t seen the inside of a gym in years.

Nor did he have a tan.

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Gov't Mule
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Why would the "goth" Sting character who had been hanging out in the rafters for months have a tan anyway?
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Pillsbury
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I was thinking of this while jammed in the mall last second shopping.One thing I’d question Sting on is this.As you’re laying there and the planned fast count obviously ain’t going down why not shoot you’re shoulder up?The whole god damn story of what they wanted to happen hangs on the fact something screwy happens with the count necessitating Bret to overturn the call.Sting shoulda been more aware of what was going down right there,no doubt.

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Rob from IA
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quote:
Originally posted by Pillsbury:
I was thinking of this while jammed in the mall last second shopping.One thing I’d question Sting on is this.As you’re laying there and the planned fast count obviously ain’t going down why not shoot you’re shoulder up?The whole god damn story of what they wanted to happen hangs on the fact something screwy happens with the count necessitating Bret to overturn the call.Sting shoulda been more aware of what was going down right there,no doubt.

The thing is it was a fast count by Nick Patrick standards so I don't really think he did anything wrong nor would Hogan or Sting think something was wrong in the moment. I probably would've had a couple counts elsewhere in the match though at his normal cadence, instead it was literally the only count Patrick made all show since he hadn't officiated any other matches prior IIRC.

I still think what screwed up the timing more than anything was having to wait for Bret to come to the ring and get into position to stop the bell. You can see Hogan look to the aisle, presumable making sure Bret is coming, before dropping the leg and then Patrick hesitates getting into position to count so Bret can get to the table at the right moment. In retrospect it really doesn't make sense for Bret to already be down to the ring before the count even happens, how would he know Sting was going to get screwed?

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Portalesman
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quote:
Originally posted by Red Cloak:
quote:
Originally posted by Portalesman:
I sold pecans to Sting that particular evening. He seemed to be in good spirits and mentioned that under no certain circumstances would be getting a tan.

Couldn’t he at least sign up for a gym membership? He looked like he hadn’t seen the inside of a gym in years.

Nor did he have a tan.

1. He was not naked when I sold him peanuts so I didn't CSI his skin being how it was just a mutually consentual cash transaction for agricultural goods.

2. We didn't talk about the gym, his rippling pectorals or his washboard stomach because Im straight. I cant help you with these issues.

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Palmettopig
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To be fair to Eric on the show when Conrad call him out there are many times Eric will admit that his decisions were crap. As Eric has said he has nothing to gain or lose by lying in 2018. I think he forgets somethings , but I really don't think he is lying on stuff. I mean can you remember all business decisions you made 21 years ago?

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Merchant in VA
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The NWO couldn’t land a hand on Sting for a year, outsmarted at every turn. Then the match started and Hogan actually did damage by — if memory serves — raking his back, the entire allure of the character evaporated. So so bad even before the heat-killing ending. He had to sell a back rake. Ugh.

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bAzTNM
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I agree with Nash in that they should have made it more epic. Have a cage up, surrounded with "armed" guards etc.

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tamalie from MN
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quote:
Originally posted by Palmettopig:
To be fair to Eric on the show when Conrad call him out there are many times Eric will admit that his decisions were crap. As Eric has said he has nothing to gain or lose by lying in 2018. I think he forgets somethings , but I really don't think he is lying on stuff. I mean can you remember all business decisions you made 21 years ago?

I don't necessarily think Eric Bischoff is lying. However, his interpretations of events and/or his attempts to spin things in ways that justify his decisions and world view are pretty clear.
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baptistbusman
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By this time in the game I had lost a slight interest in it all. One thing that made it less interesting was that it really wasn't even Sting. The whole fun thing with Sting was the flashy colors and wild man act screaming and getting everyone wound up....this angle made him gloomy and boring. Scorpion death drop? No thanks.
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DKM
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quote:
Originally posted by Palmettopig:
To be fair to Eric on the show when Conrad call him out there are many times Eric will admit that his decisions were crap. As Eric has said he has nothing to gain or lose by lying in 2018. I think he forgets somethings , but I really don't think he is lying on stuff. I mean can you remember all business decisions you made 21 years ago?

I'd probably remember what should have been the biggest decision of my career at that point.

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David meltzer
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Eric is one of the biggest liars I've ever met.

Now imagine the magnitude of that statement.

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Idol I
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Sting had a better tan at clash of the champions 22 in Albany.

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Mon-Ray-Al
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Well first, having Bret and wanting to use the big controversy of Montreal, they wanted to do a screwy finish and milk it. You had basically three Sting-Hogan matches back to back. First match was at Starrcade, Second match happened on Nitro and the show ended before the match ended and Hogan "sued" WCW so it would not count and they could not show the tape of the finish. And then there was a final match at Uncensored I believe where it happened the way we wished it would have happened at Starrcade, Sting dominated and won clean.

I know as a fan I was frustrated that Sting did not kick the living Hell out of Hogan but when I re-watched it, I thought it was brilliant psychology-wise. Cause wrestling is great with heat and you should never get what you expect because we might as well all go home and don't bother watching. It's the same thing with movies, you want someone to tell you a story that you won't know. That is the point. The fact that people were expecting a slaughter and instead had Hogan dominate was the beauty of it, cause it made you frustrated, you wanted the hero to survive and make comeback. You have to earn your victory. That's wrestling, not just some five minutes squash where the hero win easily. You want to best the last bad guy standing? Well you're gonna have to earn it.

The ending comes down to as it's supposed to be a fast count which leads to controversy but they forgot that Nick Patrick was one of the slowest, most clumsy "counter" ref in the biz with his long arms of his. For him this was a fast count! And Sting was so sure that this would work that he did not even bother lifting his damn shoulder! It's not Sting that screwed up, it's really picking Patrick in that spot. This would never happened in the WWF cause they rehearsed everything. If WCW had prepared themselves and "practiced" the spot, they would have realised that Patrick in that role did not work.

[ 01-06-2019, 12:44 AM: Message edited by: Mon-Ray-Al ]

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Pillsbury
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What?Hogan got to Patrick before hand,it had nothing to do with being clumsy.

As far as “brilliant psychology”i think you’re thinking way too hard on this dude.WCW had been getting smashed for over a year and the top dog bad ass baby face was back to settle the score finally.I don’t think anyone who’s ever watched wrestling with a brain needs to think too hard about how that should go.The bad guy finally has to answer for all his bullsh*t.Even if Sting won clean with the match as is it still woulda sucked because having Hogan dominate the match didn’t create heat as you say,it took away from Sting every second it was happening.It was a disaster.

As far as using Bret coming off Montreal,of course you wanna capatilize on him he’s red hot.But you didn’t have to get too creative here.NWO hits the ring and Bret saves Sting cause Bret “knows what it’s like to get screwed”.Next night NWO fight among themselves and Sting offers the uncrowned WWF Champ next Title shot out of respect.Done.

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Red Cloak
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he should have shown up as the joker sting. That gimmick was priceless.
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Shaving Weezie Jefferson
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quote:
Originally posted by Red Cloak:
he should have shown up as the joker sting. That gimmick was priceless.

Except that gimmick didn't exist at the time. He had to wait nearly a decade to steal it from Heath Ledger. He was still stealing from Brandon Lee when this match happened.

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Happ Hazzard
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Sting should have beaten Hogan in about 5 minutes. Sting beats down Hogan for 4 minutes, Nash & Hall run in, Sting hits them with the bat, Scorpion Death Drops Hogan, 1-2-3. Hogan feuds with Nash for a few months, eventually you do a rematch of Hogan vs Sting which Hogan can win in screwy fashion, then the next night Goldberg squashes Hogan for the belt on Nitro. At that point the nWo breaks up, Hogan goes away for a while, and comes back in the elder statesman babyface role.
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Red Cloak
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Happ Hazzard that sounds really good. I’m just not buying that Sting can make a long term champion.
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Matt Farmer from WA
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quote:
Originally posted by Happ Hazzard:
Sting should have beaten Hogan in about 5 minutes. Sting beats down Hogan for 4 minutes, Nash & Hall run in, Sting hits them with the bat, Scorpion Death Drops Hogan, 1-2-3. Hogan feuds with Nash for a few months, eventually you do a rematch of Hogan vs Sting which Hogan can win in screwy fashion, then the next night Goldberg squashes Hogan for the belt on Nitro. At that point the nWo breaks up, Hogan goes away for a while, and comes back in the elder statesman babyface role.

Having Goldberg squash Hogan on Nitro was a bigger mistake than having Sting win in a half ass manner at Starrcade.

An eventual Goldberg vs Hogan match at Starrcade for the championship would have blown away what Starrcade did. Having Goldberg/Hogan at Nitro was akin to WCW giving away $15 million dollars or more.

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tamalie from MN
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That Georgia Dome show was already guaranteed its huge crowd and gate. Adding Hogan vs. Goldberg didn't make the event any significant additional money and the higher ratings that night weren't a big deal in the long run. It meant something in the context of lots of fans seeing Bill Goldberg getting a win over Hulk Hogan on TV, but with a better and longer build up would have meant even more.
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Liz Hunter's Boyfriend
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quote:
Originally posted by Red Cloak:
Just listened to some Eric Bischoff interviews...

Why? Bischoff is a con man, a grifter, a liar. And not in an entertaining way.

He's becoming Russoesque.

**** Bischoff. There are dozens of way more honest and interesting wrestling podcasts out here.

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Red Cloak
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Maybe I like Bischoff? He’s a good man.

Your hero and deity Ric Flair loves him again now too.

It’s easy to play Monday morning quarterback. Say whatever you want until your blue in the face. You’ll never change the fact that the only man who ever beat Vince McMahon at his own game is Eric Bischoff. And he did it with little internal organization and structure.

I’d argue that organization and structure is more important than money.

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Mon-Ray-Al
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quote:
Originally posted by Pillsbury:
What?Hogan got to Patrick before hand,it had nothing to do with being clumsy.

As far as “brilliant psychology”i think you’re thinking way too hard on this dude.WCW had been getting smashed for over a year and the top dog bad ass baby face was back to settle the score finally.I don’t think anyone who’s ever watched wrestling with a brain needs to think too hard about how that should go.The bad guy finally has to answer for all his bullsh*t.Even if Sting won clean with the match as is it still woulda sucked because having Hogan dominate the match didn’t create heat as you say,it took away from Sting every second it was happening.It was a disaster.

As far as using Bret coming off Montreal,of course you wanna capatilize on him he’s red hot.But you didn’t have to get too creative here.NWO hits the ring and Bret saves Sting cause Bret “knows what it’s like to get screwed”.Next night NWO fight among themselves and Sting offers the uncrowned WWF Champ next Title shot out of respect.Done.

But I keep hearing all this Sting should have beat him in 5 minutes but this has never happened in wrestling. The good guy can have a payback sure but you still have to create intrigue in the match itself. What some of you are describing is not wrestling. It's the last five minutes of a movie. Hell not even the last five minutes of a movie cause at the end of Diehard, Bruce Willis still have to stuggle to defeat the bad guy. A short squatch to beat the bad guy is not a good idea. It is terrible in fact.

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