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Author Topic: Why did Jacksonville get an NFL team?
TerryR
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A friend was talking to me yesterday about going to Jacksonville for a conference. I asked him, what's in Jacksonville, and he said "not much". If it wasn't for the NFL team I would never have heard of the city (and not trying to be disparaging, I live in Hamilton, ON and "The Hammer" is always the butt of jokes in Toronto, thus our national media).

I know it's considered a small market so I am curious if anyone here has any insight into why they got a team. I did read a quick story and the gist of that article was that extensive lobbying and a lack of other solid alternatives brought the NFL to Jacksonville. It was a Jacksonville site so maybe there's other reasons.

Or if you have insight into why other cities do or don't have teams in any sport, post them in this thread too.

Thanks.

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mckinneydg
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Seems like there was an idea/threat/whatever that the Atlanta Falcons would relocate to Jacksonville back in the 1980s.

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REO Speeddealer
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In addition to the stellar lobbying effort, the other cities had plenty of things working against them.

[ 03-20-2017, 07:40 AM: Message edited by: REO Speeddealer ]

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Curt Injurker
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The way I remember it, the NFL took the two candidate cities that were furthest southeast(Charlotte and Jacksonville), a move in line with the expansion goals of other major American sports leagues at the time. Of the final five candiates, the three losing cities were Baltimore, St Louis, and either Memphis or Nashville.
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Path Of Rage
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The USFL's Jacksonville Bulls led the league in attendance, including setting a USFL single game attendance record, for their two seasons if I'm not mistaken.

I believe the Bulls gate success was a factor in Jacksonville securing an NFL team.

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Happ Hazzard
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Isn't Jacksonville the most populated city in Florida? I have to admit I had never heard of it until the Jaguars came along.
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sad dog cuzz sawyer from IL
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Jacksonville people were rabid USFL fans. Jacksonville I believe is one of the largest by square mile cities in the United States When you cross the County line for ducal county on I 10 you are in the city limits of Jacksonville. I was down at the beach during the USFL era and I watched people starting to leave in a somewhat moderate amount. I asked if a storm was coming in and a guy told me people were going home to watch the Jacksonville USFL football on tv

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GShea from TN loves Sarah Palin
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quote:
Originally posted by Curt Injurker:
The way I remember it, the NFL took the two candidate cities that were furthest southeast(Charlotte and Jacksonville), a move in line with the expansion goals of other major American sports leagues at the time. Of the final five candiates, the three losing cities were Baltimore, St Louis, and either Memphis or Nashville.

Actually, Nashville was never seriously in the running for a team until one day out of the blue in 1995 Bud Adams decided he wanted to move here. Memphis was thought to be a lock eventually, but THEY irrevocably screwed that up.......

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djangoska
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I think Adams threatened the city of Houston he would leave for Jacksonville if they did add skyboxes or something like that I could be mistaken.

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ckb_nc
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Charlotte and Jacksonville were somewhat surprises. But the southeast was seen and still is a growing market. While the Panthers have been a success by all accounts, the Jaguars have not produced a truly consistent winner. And with college football, particularly the SEC, becoming a much more dominant part of the landscape, the team has struggled. Reverse the fortune of the two franchises winning records, I am sure we might have the same conversation on the Panthers. Heck even this year after the Super Bowl run tickets were plentiful once the season tanker here in Charlotte.

Winning solves many problems and here in the south its especially true as college sports is so much bigger say in the Northeast. Walk into a local sports store in Boston - wall to wall pro teams, do the same thing here in Charlotte and its 50/50 pro and college. And in some places that is more likely more college.

Its true of local sports radio (today will be about UNC winning and Duke losing locally) as well. So the Jags need to win, and win consistently.

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Shaving Weezie Jefferson
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quote:
Originally posted by ckb_nc:
Charlotte and Jacksonville were somewhat surprises.

Charlotte wasn't a surprise to those following the several-year campaign locally in real time. The Richardson family did a masterful job selling the "Metrolina area" (not just Charlotte but the Greenville/Spartanburg/Asheville market and surrounding areas) as one big demo.
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Daddy Dewdrop
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quote:
Originally posted by Happ Hazzard:
Isn't Jacksonville the most populated city in Florida?

By far:
Jacksonville - 868,000
Miami - 440,000
Tampa - 369,000
Orlando - 270,000

That said, Miami, Tampa and Orlando are all have a much higher total metro population than Jacksonville.

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NJRob65
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quote:
Originally posted by Happ Hazzard:
Isn't Jacksonville the most populated city in Florida? I have to admit I had never heard of it until the Jaguars came along.

Jacksonville is the largest city in Florida in therms of area, as well as population. It is the largest city in area in the continental United States(Lower 48), Anchorage is approximately twice as large in area.

In terms of media markets, its only the 47th largest market in the United States, and the fifth largest in the State of Florida, the following are larger markets in the state of Florida:

11 Tampa-St. Peterburg
16 Miami-Ft. Lauderdale
18 Orlando-Daytona Beach-Melbourne
38 West Palm Beach-Ft. Pierce

Here's more information about television markets: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_television_markets

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ltp711
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One of the stories floating around was that Art Modell sabotaged the Baltimore expansion team so we could take the stadium deal for himself. Couple that with the NFL being nervous about going back to St. Louis and Memphis as the other option you get the Jacksonville Jaguars.
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tamalie from MN
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The NFL held back St. Louis and Baltimore as relocation candidate cities because both had new stadiums fully approved and were just waiting for occupants. St. Louis started building on spec. Baltimore waited to have a team in hand. With Charlotte and Jacksonville, new stadiums would be needed and approval for each was contingent on getting a team. That made them better candidates for expansion.

In Jacksonville there would be no competition from the NBA, NHL or MLB. There was also no major college football team directly in the market. Gainesville and the University of Florida are about 90 minutes away which is about the same distance Atlanta is to the University of Georgia in Athens. Many other NFL teams have NCAA teams in market or closer. The idea was the city would rally around its only big league team. The NBA had and still has enormous success in this regard around this time for the Utah Jazz, Portland Trailblazers, Sacramento Kings, San Antonio Spurs, Orlando Magic, and Charlotte Hornets (pre Panthers).

Why have the Jags not gotten over as well as hoped for or expected? There are several factors. Jacksonville is the #47 TV market. Of NFL teams, only the Saints and Bills have a smaller catchment area (the Packers get Milwaukee in addition to Green Bay). The Jags were too successful too soon and the fans didn't go through the hard seasons early enough to appreciate the down times. They were in the playoffs in their second through fifth seasons and made two AFC Championship Games. Since then, the problem has been too many bad seasons with only two playoff seasons in the past seventeen and only three winning seasons in that same span. The Jags are currently riding a nine year streak with no winning record. The stadium was initially too big. It had 80,000 plus seats because that capacity is required for the annual Georgia vs. Florida football game. The Jags never needed that many seats and the overabundance skewed the supply/demand equation in a bad way.

Now the team has a capacity of around 67,000 and didn't have a blackout for years before the NFL more or less abolished them, but they still aren't a hot ticket. There are a lot of Falcons, Dolphins, Buccaneers, Saints, and Panthers fans nearby to Jax, plus all the fans of teams with national followings like the Cowboys and Broncos. Can the Jaguars ever win over Jacksonville? Of course, all they have to do is win. As recently as the early 1990s the Patriots were a distant fourth place among the big league teams in metro Boston and played in a ramshackle stadium that regularly failed to sell out by significant distances. Now they are a dynasty because of two decades plus of success. Sometimes that's all it takes.

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TerryR
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Thanks, I appreciate the replies. This is what I was looking for; what were the factors at the time.
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Skullbutt
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Baltimore was positive it was going to get the second team along with Charlotte. Its slogan was "Give Baltimore the Ball." They were devestated when Jacksonville got the franchise.

I thought Baltimore's badmouthing of the NFL after the Colts went to Indy hurt their chances although no one else but me ever said that.

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Corkscrew Elbow
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A friend of mine lives in Miami. He once told me that people in Florida consider Jacksonville to be in Georgia.
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Klon, Melbourne Florida
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I have lived the #18 media market in the country
Orlando, Daytona , Melbourne since 1968.

I have never seen anyone , not a soul wearing a
Jacksonville hat, t-shirt , nothing . Never !

My county Brevard , my city Melbourne is 48 %
retirees. You see NFL and college team items
365 days a year because of the weather . On the very rare
occasion people wear hoodies or windbreakers never
ever Jacksonville.

I don't claim to speak about Tampa or Miami.

But I damn sure know Orlando/ Daytona/ Melbourne

You actually have a better chance of seeing a Toronto
item than Jacksonville .

When the Jacksonville fiasco was created my area
lost the Miami games which have always been seen.
We were foisted with Jacksonville.

FYI my antique 40 yr old yellow El Camino has a
black Raiders plate on front to match the black
decal detailing

Klon , Melbourne Florida

[ 03-21-2017, 01:11 AM: Message edited by: Klon, Melbourne Florida ]

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Palmettopig
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Charlotte certainly waant a surprise. The NFL started playing expansion games in Columbia and Raleigh in the late 80s to gauge the interest in the Carolinas. The Panthers have without a doubt been a successs. Whike folks that are probably 35 and older still pull for the team they grew up with prior to the Panthers, the Millenials love the Panthers in the Carolinas.


Jacksonville is a nice city. It has pretty beaches and there is plenty to do there. It is also more Southern than most of Florida. It is home of the Florida-Georgia is game and the Gator Bowl, both huge events to the area. Jacksonville also has a very nice AAA baseball stadium.

The South is growing fast, but thr problem in some markets is that growth is coming from folks in the Rust Belt and NE moving down here. Those people already have teams and typically don't adopt the local team.

Jacksonville's biggest problem is they don't win. If they had the recent success of the Panthers you'd hear more about them

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Magnum GA
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quote:
Originally posted by NJRob65:
quote:
Originally posted by Happ Hazzard:
Isn't Jacksonville the most populated city in Florida? I have to admit I had never heard of it until the Jaguars came along.

Jacksonville is the largest city in Florida in therms of area, as well as population. It is the largest city in area in the continental United States(Lower 48), Anchorage is approximately twice as large in area.

In terms of media markets, its only the 47th largest market in the United States, and the fifth largest in the State of Florida, the following are larger markets in the state of Florida:

11 Tampa-St. Peterburg
16 Miami-Ft. Lauderdale
18 Orlando-Daytona Beach-Melbourne
38 West Palm Beach-Ft. Pierce

Here's more information about television markets: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_television_markets

Believe it or not, Anchorage isn't even the largest (by area) in Alaska!

Now back to football... The logic of awarding an NFL franchise to Jacksonville in 20/20 hind site is baffling. Where they expecting a "if you build it, they will come" effect to building a fan base? Did someone confuse population with area when the league was considering what to do about Jacksonville and the aforementioned situations? Also, would Jacksonville even had been in the conversation when it was selected to host the Super Bowl? I mean, they had to use cruise ships to get enough hotel capacity.

You know, I don't think I have ever met a Jaguars fan. Even when I've been to Jacksonville.

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tamalie from MN
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Jacksonville was discussed as a target city for NFL relocation as far back as the 1970s. As was noted, the Jacksonville Bulls of the USFL drew great crowds, averaging around 45,000 in each of its two seasons of existence and getting a pair of 70,000 plus crowds at the old Gator Bowl stadium that sat where the current stadium resides. When the Colts were looking to relocate, it was one of the leading candidates along with Phoenix, Indianapolis not becoming a contender until very late in the game due to its construction of the Hoosier Dome. Jacksonville was also in the hunt for the Cardinals when they were departing St. Louis and ultimately going to Phoenix.

The NFL had its eye on the market for probably fifteen plus years prior to granting the Jaguars franchise. Had the team sustained its early winning ways, I think the bond between the team and the locals would be much stronger, but when you go that long without a playoff bid and with so few winning seasons, people get worn out. The idea of being the only big league team in a market is also sound, but the wins must come. Using the NBA example, the Utah Jazz are an institution in their region, but the club's first four seasons in Salt Lake City all saw the team lose 50 plus games per year in front of tiny crowds with the club's very existence in question. Once Stockton and Malone arrived, the wins followed and the Jazz as we recognize them came to be. That can happen in Jax too.

As far as Carolina goes, apart from planting seeds by playing preseason games in nearby college stadiums, the NFL saw the Charlotte Hornets drawing nearly 24,000 per game in the late 1980s and early 1990s. League officials figured that if the fans would support the NBA team, they'd support the NFL. Charlotte was a city growing in size and affluence. It made all the sense in the world when the team was granted in 1993 to begin play in 1995.

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mrknoxville
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I was doing a little research on Jacksonville and their quest for a NFL team. I was a little surprised with what I found.

In 1974, when the NFL awarded Tampa and Seattle teams, the other cities being considered for NFL franchises were Memphis, Phoenix, Honolulu, Indianapolis and Jacksonville.

In 1979/1980, when Robert Irsay started talking about moving the Colts from Baltimore, Jacksonville, along with Memphis and Phoenix, were considered the frontrunners for the Colts.

In the mid 80s(85/86/87), Bud Adams threatened to move the Houston Oilers to Jacksonville if the city of Houston didn't meet certain demands on stadium improvements to the Astrodome, one of SEVERAL THREATENED MOVES he made before moving the Oilers to Nashville. Apparently, Jacksonville had been in the mind of possible NFL cities since the mid 70s.

My mom's sister and her family have lived in Jacksonville since the late 1950s, so I have several cousins that live in the area that are Jaguar fans.

[ 03-21-2017, 08:29 AM: Message edited by: mrknoxville ]

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mckinneydg
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Finally found something about the Falcons and Jacksonville. Of course the Falcons got out of Atlanta-Fulton County Stadium and into the domed stadium they wanted (Georgia Dome). That is closed now and waiting to be demolished as Mercedes-Benz Stadium opens next door.

http://www.upi.com/Archives/1987/04/10/City-officials-in-Jacksonville-Fla-have-invited-the-NFL/3982545025600/

[ 03-21-2017, 11:30 AM: Message edited by: mckinneydg ]

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RonnieP
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quote:
Originally posted by Happ Hazzard:
Isn't Jacksonville the most populated city in Florida? I have to admit I had never heard of it until the Jaguars came along.

Jacksonville is the largest city in the US according to square miles...
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Crimson Mask from FL
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It incorporated its whole county is why.

So long from the Sunshine State!

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GShea from TN loves Sarah Palin
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quote:
Originally posted by Crimson Mask from FL:
It incorporated its whole county is why.

So long from the Sunshine State!

Nashville did too back in 1963. Had no idea it was the largest city in the US - I figured that would be LA.

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"Bell time, and heeeeeeeeerrrreeeeeee we go Davey..........."

"Whose woods are these I think I know." - Robert Frost on a Ugandan safari

"When I was born, my Momma looked at me and she said 'Oh God, he looks like a saddlebag face!'. But she said 'Saddlebag face, I love you!'." - Blackjack Mulligan

"YOU ARE DEAD! DEAD! DEAD!" - Plowboy Frazier

"Perfessional rassling toughness!" - Bill Mercer

"This is the greatest card in the history of Nashville!" - Nick Gulas

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Matt Prentice
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quote:
Originally posted by Daddy Dewdrop:
quote:
Originally posted by Happ Hazzard:
Isn't Jacksonville the most populated city in Florida?

By far:
Jacksonville - 868,000
Miami - 440,000
Tampa - 369,000
Orlando - 270,000

That said, Miami, Tampa and Orlando are all have a much higher total metro population than Jacksonville.

Exactly. Miami/Fort Lauderdale is a top 10 metro area in the US and both Orlando and Tampa are top 25. Jacksonville is barely top 50.
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mr. disco
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I think a big issue, is that it's smack in the middle of a triangle of three other established NFL teams, in Atlanta, Tampa and Miami, so they had to carve out a fan base from people who may have previously been fans of those teams. (and you're talking about three markets who have lukewarm fanbases themselves at times). It's also a poorer city economically than many, and has a fairly small corporate base. It's probably most like Buffalo in that regard.

I think another reason they were a threat for relocation so far back into the 70's, is they had an existing large stadium with no permanent tenant. The old Gator Bowl was used for the bowl game and the Florida-Georgia game, and little else, so it would have been easy to move an NFL team in. The same would have been true for Orlando and Birmingham, both of which had WFL or USFL teams at times.

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ExChiTown from IL (by way of FL)
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quote:
Originally posted by Klon, Melbourne Florida:
I have lived the #18 media market in the country
Orlando, Daytona , Melbourne since 1968.

I have never seen anyone , not a soul wearing a
Jacksonville hat, t-shirt , nothing . Never !

My county Brevard , my city Melbourne is 48 %
retirees. You see NFL and college team items
365 days a year because of the weather . On the very rare
occasion people wear hoodies or windbreakers never
ever Jacksonville.

I don't claim to speak about Tampa or Miami.

But I damn sure know Orlando/ Daytona/ Melbourne

You actually have a better chance of seeing a Toronto
item than Jacksonville .

When the Jacksonville fiasco was created my area
lost the Miami games which have always been seen.
We were foisted with Jacksonville.

FYI my antique 40 yr old yellow El Camino has a
black Raiders plate on front to match the black
decal detailing

Klon , Melbourne Florida

Well, in the Oviedo/UCF portion of the Orlando market, there are a Lot of Jags hats, tees & jerseys visible during NFL season. This is because Blake Bortles is the Jags QB at the moment. And he's a hometown boy, graduating from Oviedo High, then going to UCF, about 10 minutes away.

I agree about the rest of the Orlando area, but around here, the Jags are the team. One of the local drinking establishments runs 1 or 2 bus trips from here to Jax every season.

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18 Guys Named Ramirez
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Tamalie gave a great synopsis.

What I have heard over the years is that the NFL wanted to bring Wayne Weaver into the fold as he was a credible and stable owner and he sold the league on Jacksonville being "the Green Bay of the South" as having similar demographics and possibilities.

And from 1995 until 2001, from the perspective of living there and having season tickets then, they were pretty close to being just that.

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"Look here, If you don't get your *** to work, I got 18 guys named Ramirez that want your job.." Contractor resurfacing my driveway to an argumentative employee. (He got back to work.)

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