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» WrestlingClassics.com Message Board » Professional Wrestling & General Discussion 2010 - Current » Shawn's Refusing to Job vs. Brody's Refusing to Job (Page 3)

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Author Topic: Shawn's Refusing to Job vs. Brody's Refusing to Job
jkeats
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While Shawn obviously acted out of arrogance at times, I always took his refusing to job as a protection to himself for being a "small" guy in a big guy company. I looked at it in a similar way to Roddy Piper.

I don't see much difference between the actions of Brody and Michaels. Both were looking out for themselves in an every man for himself kind of business. I don't think they were always in the right but I get the rationale.

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Gerry K. Fabian
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quote:
Originally posted by PeteF3:
Definitely a case where the promoter was in the wrong. I'm sure there was an expectation of Hansen eventually doing a job--it's not like Jumbo was killed by losing to Rick Martel--but you can't promise your Japanese affiliate a tour's worth of title defenses and than renege.

Except that's not the story Hansen tells. While he acknowledges that his career in Japan was his priority, he says there were no promises to defend the belt for Baba until Baba learned Hansen had absconded with the belt.

Hansen's real beef is even more relevant to this discussion: He was angry that Gagne made him champion and then didn't put him in a position to draw money. He didn't want to give up the title until he'd proved himself a draw.

I assume his objection, besides just the frustration of working for an incompetent, is that Gagne made him look less valuable to other promoters. Gagne claimed that Hansen and Martel had proved themselves poor draws. Hansen reframed that conversation.

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JWLPromoter from FL
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Bill Alfonso, who was the referee for the Brody-Luger incident, has said that the lesson was that you don't try to tell a veteran how to work a match.

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Nontraditional Student
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quote:
Originally posted by JWLPromoter from FL:
Bill Alfonso, who was the referee for the Brody-Luger incident, has said that the lesson was that you don't try to tell a veteran how to work a match.

Sir Oliver Humperdink (R.I.P.) said a few years back that the entire thing was a rib on Luger.

[ 05-12-2012, 01:00 PM: Message edited by: Nontraditional Student ]

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Bramma23
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quote:
Originally posted by Nontraditional Student:
quote:
Originally posted by JWLPromoter from FL:
Bill Alfonso, who was the referee for the Brody-Luger incident, has said that the lesson was that you don't try to tell a veteran how to work a match.

Sir Oliver Humperdink (R.I.P.) said a few years back that the entire thing was a rib on Luger.
Mike Graham said the whole thing was his idea.

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Mark Nulty from WA
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quote:
Originally posted by Portalesman:
quote:
Originally posted by Bnicholas:
quote:
Originally posted by Portalesman:
quote:
Originally posted by C.C. Milani from NY:
quote:
Originally posted by Jeff from Texas:
I agree that Frank and Shawn were out for themselves. Who should they have been out for? Honestly, not being sarcastic, but if it were you who would you have thought of? As Ports said above, these are independent contractors and they can be cut at any time. At that point in their careers there were other options and if they hadn't protected their image their career could have taken an entirely different route. So, were they wrong for watching out for themselves and, by extension, their families?

Shawn Michaels was not an independent contractor in the 90's and he could not have been cut at any time.


Smart money says his tax returns say he WAS an Independant Contractor. Go argue with the IRS if you wanna. You'll lose.
I think everyone (except maybe you) would agree that while Vince still gets his wrestlers classified as independent contractors, by the actual legal definition, they are in no way independent contractors. They are told when to show up, given a script to recite on air, told who to beat, who to lose to, how to lose or win, where to travel to, and even how to dress when traveling. And these "independent contractors" also sign contracts that keep them employed with ONE company for a minimum of one year and don't allow them to go to the only competitor in town for atleast 90 days (or more) after said contract is up. As someone who has worked as an independent contractor, that is in no way reflective of how the relationship is supposed to work and it is truly sad that the wrestlers have been browbeat down or lacked the guts or been so fearful as to never fully contest this (and don't say Raven, a very biased judged threw it out on technical grounds and never ruled on the actual substance of the complaint).


You make these statements like as this issue hasnt been decided in the courts of We The People. "WE" decided that they WERE Independant Contractors, by definition of the Law.

Your message board opinion has been trumped by the Law.

Port.... this is a good discussion.

Please allow it to be one. You can do your act on the Mark Markley board if you want.

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PoorlyToldJoke from OH
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quote:
Originally posted by JWLPromoter from FL:
Bill Alfonso, who was the referee for the Brody-Luger incident, has said that the lesson was that you don't try to tell a veteran how to work a match.

Yeah, great. Brody gets a pass for being a psycho because it was brody doing it to luger. Exchange their places and people would be calling for Luger to be arrested.

The fact is Shawn refusing to job is the exact same as Brody refusing to job. No different. this is just one of the normal "Let's find a way to say bad things about Shawn Michaels" threads while propping up one of our heroes.

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Portalesman
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Nulty from WA:
quote:
Originally posted by Portalesman:
quote:
Originally posted by Bnicholas:
quote:
Originally posted by Portalesman:
quote:
Originally posted by C.C. Milani from NY:
quote:
Originally posted by Jeff from Texas:
I agree that Frank and Shawn were out for themselves. Who should they have been out for? Honestly, not being sarcastic, but if it were you who would you have thought of? As Ports said above, these are independent contractors and they can be cut at any time. At that point in their careers there were other options and if they hadn't protected their image their career could have taken an entirely different route. So, were they wrong for watching out for themselves and, by extension, their families?

Shawn Michaels was not an independent contractor in the 90's and he could not have been cut at any time.


Smart money says his tax returns say he WAS an Independant Contractor. Go argue with the IRS if you wanna. You'll lose.
I think everyone (except maybe you) would agree that while Vince still gets his wrestlers classified as independent contractors, by the actual legal definition, they are in no way independent contractors. They are told when to show up, given a script to recite on air, told who to beat, who to lose to, how to lose or win, where to travel to, and even how to dress when traveling. And these "independent contractors" also sign contracts that keep them employed with ONE company for a minimum of one year and don't allow them to go to the only competitor in town for atleast 90 days (or more) after said contract is up. As someone who has worked as an independent contractor, that is in no way reflective of how the relationship is supposed to work and it is truly sad that the wrestlers have been browbeat down or lacked the guts or been so fearful as to never fully contest this (and don't say Raven, a very biased judged threw it out on technical grounds and never ruled on the actual substance of the complaint).


You make these statements like as this issue hasnt been decided in the courts of We The People. "WE" decided that they WERE Independant Contractors, by definition of the Law.

Your message board opinion has been trumped by the Law.

Port.... this is a good discussion.

Please allow it to be one. You can do your act on the Mark Markley board if you want.

Psst. Mark. Its not an "act" I HIRE and PAY Independant Contractors. Smart money says you dont and never have. Please don't pull your owner card out and attempt to know more about this issue than I do. If you wished to chastise me, please feel free to do so in private and leave the dick flopping away from public view. I dont appreciate it anymore than you do now.
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Matt Farmer from WA
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Was the difference between what Brody did to Luger, and what Danny Hodge did with Brody?

We've all heard the stories that Hodge shot on him and twisted him into a pretzel? No more or less professional in some minds. Guess the only difference is one was video taped, and one wasn't.

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Gerry K. Fabian
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt Farmer from WA:
Was the difference between what Brody did to Luger, and what Danny Hodge did with Brody?

We've all heard the stories that Hodge shot on him and twisted him into a pretzel? No more or less professional in some minds. Guess the only difference is one was video taped, and one wasn't.

One difference is that Hodge outwrestling Goodish probably looked like wrestling, which is the product they were ostensibly selling to the fans, while Goodish no-selling Luger's stuff made wrestling in general look bogus. Not condoning either incident, but they are different.

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Bnicholas
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quote:
Originally posted by Portalesman:
[/qb]

Psst. Mark. Its not an "act" I HIRE and PAY Independant Contractors. Smart money says you dont and never have. Please don't pull your owner card out and attempt to know more about this issue than I do. If you wished to chastise me, please feel free to do so in private and leave the dick flopping away from public view. I dont appreciate it anymore than you do now. [/QB][/QUOTE]

For someone who allegedly hires independent contractors, you show a shocking lack of knowledge about the requirements for autonomy that are part of the law.

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JWLPromoter from FL
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quote:
Originally posted by PoorlyToldJoke from OH:
quote:
Originally posted by JWLPromoter from FL:
Bill Alfonso, who was the referee for the Brody-Luger incident, has said that the lesson was that you don't try to tell a veteran how to work a match.

Yeah, great. Brody gets a pass for being a psycho because it was brody doing it to luger. Exchange their places and people would be calling for Luger to be arrested.
The Brody-Luger incident has become SUCH a huge part of Brody's legend that it is probably the only thing that some wrestling fans know about him. I've even encountered Cena-bashers on YouTube who've said that if Brody was around now and booked against Cena that he'd do the same thing, not even considering that Brody might be booked to win this hypothetical match. I've pointed out that if Brody was around now he'd be turning 66 this year so who knows if he'd even still be competing, but I think that those YT jerks just love the idea of bad things happening to Cena, logic be damned. [Roll Eyes]

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"BANG BANG!"

"Those who cannot remember history are condemned to repeat it."- George Santayana

"...the strongest force in the world is a woman!"- Jimmy Hart

The George The Animal Steele Fan Page!

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weaselsuit from MN
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I never listen to instructions.

So...

David Bowie's "Station to Station".

I can't rank ten, so there you have it.

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Martin Tori
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quote:
Originally posted by weaselsuit from MN:
I never listen to instructions.

So...

David Bowie's "Station to Station".

I can't rank ten, so there you have it.

Now THAT'S a hijacking.

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"16 day debreidden is hopspital and did gp crazt. Check. Peached are godd, check."

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Mark Nulty from WA
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quote:
Originally posted by Portalesman:
Psst. Mark. Its not an "act" I HIRE and PAY Independant Contractors. Smart money says you dont and never have. Please don't pull your owner card out and attempt to know more about this issue than I do. If you wished to chastise me, please feel free to do so in private and leave the dick flopping away from public view. I dont appreciate it anymore than you do now.

Then by all means, PLEASE, contribute to the conversation.

It just seems like you're always going for the joke rather rather than trying to get a serious point across.

Even here, "We the People with our LAW trumps your wrestling board opinion."

I say this in all seriousness... plesae give us your experience and insight as to WHY pro wrestlers that sign contracts with the WWE are still independent contractors.

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Crimson Mask from FL
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quote:
Originally posted by Gerry K. Fabian:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Farmer from WA:
Was the difference between what Brody did to Luger, and what Danny Hodge did with Brody?

We've all heard the stories that Hodge shot on him and twisted him into a pretzel? No more or less professional in some minds. Guess the only difference is one was video taped, and one wasn't.

One difference is that Hodge outwrestling Goodish probably looked like wrestling, which is the product they were ostensibly selling to the fans, while Goodish no-selling Luger's stuff made wrestling in general look bogus. Not condoning either incident, but they are different.
If we're to believe Watts, Brody complained about having to job to or give anything to or just even work (I forget which one it was) 'little' Hodge, and Watts told him to walk though Hodge if he thought he could. I missed the part where Luger was trying to walk through Brody.

So long from the Sunshine State!

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Matt Farmer from WA
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I'm not defending either situation. Just pointing out that things happen in the ring. Sometimes their done as a rib, sometimes done to smarten up someone. In both situations I bet there was a lot less malice than many think.

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Crimson Mask from FL
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'Malice' isn't the issue.

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Anybody who says 'I'm here to solve problems, not create them' is about to create a problem.

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C.C. Milani from NY
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If there's one thing we can take away from this thread, it's this: sometimes wrestlers and those in the business can't see outside of the "I've been in the ring, Brother" goldfish bowl they create for themselves.

As in, if Humperdink really did write off the incident as a rib on Luger, he should understand that the rib was really on the people that paid to see the match, and I'll guarantee a few of those fans made it a point not to attend another CWF show. Bwa-ha-ha, that's hilarious. My sides hurt.

If, as Mr. Farmer suggests, the incident was done to smarten someone up...well, people were smartened up, alright.

IMO if you're in the business and care about the business, you shouldn't defend or rationalize situations that put bulletholes in the business.

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Martin Tori
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quote:
Originally posted by C.C. Milani from NY:
If there's one thing we can take away from this thread, it's this: sometimes wrestlers and those in the business can't see outside of the "I've been in the ring, Brother" goldfish bowl they create for themselves.

As in, if Humperdink really did write off the incident as a rib on Luger, he should understand that the rib was really on the people that paid to see the match, and I'll guarantee a few of those fans made it a point not to attend another CWF show. Bwa-ha-ha, that's hilarious. My sides hurt.

If, as Mr. Farmer suggests, the incident was done to smarten someone up...well, people were smartened up, alright.

IMO if you're in the business and care about the business, you shouldn't defend or rationalize situations that put bulletholes in the business.

THIS.

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Dave Meltzer
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In both the case of Hodge to Brody and Brody to Luger, it was what the office wanted at the time.

This is a point everyone is missing. Plenty of times offices book ****** finishes, sometimes they book 30 second main events and stuff backfires. The finishes Dusty booked in Greensboro and Chicago badly hurt those cities and pissed off fans and played a part in killing a 50 year old company. Is Sting to blame for being unprofessional? Or Flair? Or the Road Warriors?

They did more damage than a house show in Lakeland that wasn't televised.

Luger was leaving the territory, had one or two nights left and they wanted Brody to go over clean the last few nights to set Brody up as the guy who ran Luger out of the territory. Luger, to protect what he thought was his business, said he wasn't doing the job (this was the match the night before and the match in question) even thought it was a house show. Brody, on instructions of Matsuda, told him to do whatever it took to make it look like Luger was doing the job. If you want to argue he should have taken that as working with the guy and double-crossing him on a finish, maybe you're right.

If you want to argue Brody & Sakaguchi and walking off the train before the tag tournament final, go right ahead. I don't know the San Antonio story and Brody was no saint. But I'm seeing a lot of people who don't know the context of the Luger thing blame him for what the office wanted.

When it was over and Luger was gone, Matsuda, in front of the boys, congratulated him on protecting the territory and went to Ron Simmons and Dewey Forte, who were just starting, and gave some speech about wrestlers and football players. Was Matsuda at fault, or deluded, debate it all you want.

And Brody did a lot of stuff promoters didn't want. But this was not one of them.

It may have been a ****** match, but when the office wants the guy leaving to look bad and he refuses to do the job, you may get a ****** match. Did the next show in Lakeland (or whatever city it was in) draw better or worse because of it? I don't even know, but I doubt it because if it was any kind of a difference, that would be part of the story.

The idea that a match that was never televised in a "B" city on the circuit killed a territory, well, sure, whatever. It had nothing to do with it.

And I'm not blaming Luger for this either other than at breakfast the day before and the way he told Brody could have been more diplomatic. I don't know if it would have made a difference.

The way Hogan wouldn't lose the IWGP title to Inoki in Tokyo caused a riot that eventually cost the company their major building for 10 months. And I don't blame Hogan. Vince, his main booker, didn't want him losing to Inoki, but Inoki wanted to win his title back. And Hogan refused to lose via count out unless it involved interference, probably on orders of Vince. Inoki's only way to get a finish was to have Choshu lariat him and Hogan both, and he'd beat the 20 count, so he at least won taking the same move Hogan did. Fans hated it and that cost the company.

Is that Hogan's fault? No. The tippy top guys in those days didn't do jobs, especially when the main guy paying them didn't want them to.

The one that was Hogan's fault was Tenryu, because WWF was getting paid tons of money by SWS and worked out a finish for Tenryu to pin Hogan. Hogan showed up and he refused, and since it was the Tokyo Dome, Tenryu lost via pin because by that point he didn't want a screwjob finish on a big show.

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C.C. Milani from NY
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave Meltzer:
The idea that a match that was never televised in a "B" city on the circuit killed a territory, well, sure, whatever. It had nothing to do with it.

Agreed. Hell, the territory was pretty much dead already.

I see both sides of it. I understand why Luger wouldn't want to do a finish that could be used to show that Brody "ran him out of Florida". I understand why The Rock didn't want to kiss McMahon's ass on RAW. I get why Ken Shamrock didn't want to be portrayed as someone that slept around with his sister.

At the same time, I don't get why guys like Dusty Rhodes and Shawn Michaels couldn't just drop a title, or how anything got accomplished when Brody stopped working in the middle of a match regardless of who orchestrated it.

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Crimson Mask from FL
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It was Ft. Lauderdale, the match itself, fwiw. Still say the fans who were bought tickets that night 'learned a lesson'.

[ 05-13-2012, 01:00 PM: Message edited by: Crimson Mask from FL ]

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Martin Tori
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Who exactly got what they wanted from that thing though? Did Brody look "stronger?" Did the office use that to put him over or bury Luger for running off to face "weaker competition?" Did it keep the boys in line? The fiasco itself just looked like a Russo angle without the illogical swerves and bad comedy.

That may not have killed the office but it was that kind of thinking that probably killed it and many other offices as well.

[ 05-13-2012, 01:27 PM: Message edited by: Martin Tori ]

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Madison Carter from TX
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I'm still vexed as to why Brody told Luger afterward (according to Luger, anyway) that the whole thing was Brody disagreeing with the office for the way he was booked and Luger was just in the wrong place, wrong time. That doesn't jibe much with them trying to rib/send a message to Luger. Why placate the target like that?

I think the underlying, and very sad fact, is, virtually no one has ever done anything in professional wrestling that was above all else "good for THE business"; they do it for themselves, for whatever reasons, and if the business gains from it, bonus.

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The Fake J.D. McKay
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quote:
Originally posted by C.C. Milani from NY:
If there's one thing we can take away from this thread, it's this: sometimes wrestlers and those in the business can't see outside of the "I've been in the ring, Brother" goldfish bowl they create for themselves.

IMO if you're in the business and care about the business, you shouldn't defend or rationalize situations that put bulletholes in the business.

This is a very good point. I have been one that has always felt that if you weren't in the dressing room or ring you can't know what happened. We can speculate but you can't really know for sure unless you were there. Of course, some of the things that we hear about get the "Chuck Norris" treatment and that is why a lot of people don't believe a bit of it. It really doesn't have so much to do with having been in the dressing room but rather not believing a word the boys say. That said, the other side of the coin is that if you pay good money to see a wrestling match and somebody messes with the match because of ego or "sending a message" then you have a right to be upset and it doesn't matter what is going on in the booker's office. Very, very nice words, CC.
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ponyplayer19
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Amazing that a JWL "I hate Shawn" post that made very little sense produced such a good thread.
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Antithesis
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Thought the Raven lawsuit was thrown out because too much time had passed from when he worked for the WWE, and it never got to the question of whether or not he qualified as a true independent contractor.

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Bnicholas
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quote:
Originally posted by Antithesis:
Thought the Raven lawsuit was thrown out because too much time had passed from when he worked for the WWE, and it never got to the question of whether or not he qualified as a true independent contractor.

That's what I mentioned. It was thrown out for a technical issue from a very conservative judge with a history of ruling for the "big guy" and not based on reasons of merit. Ports has not and can not provide any court case reference that validates the type of BS "independent contractor" relationship that has existed for wrestlers and WCW or WWF, much less the current relationship between wrestlers and WWE, which is even more restrictive. The reason the law still exists is that no wrestler (other than Raven) has had the guts to challenge it and the IRS has far bigger fish to fry than to worry about whether a law that is only covering 100 or so wrestlers is properly being employed without a specific request for an administrative hearing or a court challenge.

Here's a basic list of 20 things that generally can be used to determine if you are an independent contractor or not. I stole this from legaldictionary.com but it also follows my personal experience and the rules that I learned in taking Master's level courses in employment law and labor relations.

Twenty-factor Test

1. A worker who is required to comply with instructions about when, where, and how he or she must work is usually an employee.

2. If an employer trains a worker—requires an experienced employee to work with the worker, educates the worker through correspondence, requires the worker to attend meetings, or uses other methods—this normally indicates that the worker is an employee.

3. If a worker's services are integrated into business operations, this tends to show that the worker is subject to direction and control and is thus an employee. This is the case particularly when a business's success or continuation depends to a large extent on the performance of certain services.

4. If a worker's services must be rendered personally, there is a presumption that the employer is interested in the methods by which the services are accomplished as well as in the result, making the worker an employee.

5. If an employer hires, supervises, and pays assistants for a worker, this indicates control over the worker on the job, making the worker an employee.

6. A continuing relationship between a worker and an employer, even at irregular intervals, tends to show an employer-employee relationship.

7. An employer who sets specific hours of work for a worker exhibits control over the worker, indicating that the worker is an employee.

8. If a worker is working substantially full-time for an employer, the worker is presumably not free to do work for other employers and is therefore an employee.

9. Work performed on an employer's premises suggests the employer's control over a worker, making the worker an employee. This is especially true when work could be done elsewhere. However, the mere fact that work is done off the employer's premises does not necessarily make the worker an independent contractor.

10. If a worker is required to perform services in an order or sequence set by an employer, the employer has control over the worker that demonstrates an employer-employee relationship.

11. A worker who is required to submit regular oral or written reports to an employer is likely an employee.

12. Payment by the hour, week, or month tends to indicate that a worker is an employee; payment made by the job or on a straight commission points to an independent contractor.

13. A worker is ordinarily an employee if an employer pays for the worker's business or travel expenses.

14. An employer who furnishes a worker with significant tools, materials, or other equipment tends to show that the worker is an employee.

15. A worker who significantly invests in facilities used to perform services and not typically maintained by employees (such as office space) is generally an independent contractor.

16. A worker who can realize a profit or loss resulting from his or her services is generally an independent contractor.

17. A worker who performs for more than one firm at a time is generally an independent contractor.

18. If a worker makes his or her services available to the general public on a regular and consistent basis, that worker is generally an independent contractor.

19. An employer's right to discharge a worker tends to show that the worker is an employee. An employee must obey an employer's instructions in order to stay employed; an independent contractor can be fired only if the work result fails to meet the agreed-upon specifications.

20. If a worker has the right to terminate his or her relationship with an employer at any time without incurring liability, such as breach of contract, that worker is likely an employee.

In general, the big difference is WWE sets the parameters of work. They tell the wrestlers when they can wrestle, when to show up, provide the tools (ring, arena, script, opponent, etc.), and how to do it. WWE wrestler's "services" are definately integrated into the product and the WWE certainly has a vested interest the method the wrestler uses to accomplish his or her task. Wrestlers are also supervised by WWE officials at every show. They must follow basic rules at shows. At one time their was a dress code although I'm not sure if that is still true.

WWE gets many benefits from claiming an independent contractor relationship from saving on taxes and travel costs to not having to worry about liability for worker's comp (a biggie, although they do have to purchase insurance to run shows). It simply is not a relationship that provides the autonomy the law requires for a purchaser/independent contractor relationship.

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paulsonj72
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Didn't the state of CONN start an investigation into this exact matter if WWE wrestlers were employees or independent contractors a couple of years ago? I thought I saw it was happening but the WWE(mainly the McMahon camp) claimed (if I remember correctly) that it was a pollitical ploy because the CONN AG(Attorney General) was Richard Bluementhal who was running against Linda for the vacant US Senate seat.(He won)
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the bear
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin Tori:
If anyone ever truly challenged a WWE contract in court and followed through with it (i.e. didn't settle out of court ala Brock Lesnar), the whole system would crumble.

But that ain't gonna happen. Because wrestlers have Stockholm Syndrome.

Those contracts aren't worth the paper they're written on.

Don't they actually have a clause that states a person can be terminated for no reason what so ever

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Sed76
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If they guy who is paying your salary asks you to do a job I don't see what the big deals is. Refusing to put someone over doesn't make you a rebel or cool but just a jerk. There are ways to put a guy over without it doing to much damage to your "character".
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Gerry K. Fabian
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quote:
Originally posted by Sed76:
If they guy who is paying your salary asks you to do a job I don't see what the big deals is. Refusing to put someone over doesn't make you a rebel or cool but just a jerk. There are ways to put a guy over without it doing to much damage to your "character".

But in Brody's case, no one guy was paying his salary. His had to do business with many different promoters, each of whom could be influenced by the way he did business with the rest.

A hypothetical case: Imagine Japanese fans reading in a magazine that Bruiser Brody lost a match to Bulldog Bob Brown in Wichita, Kansas. Nobody outside Geigel's territory was going to see the match, and the magazine might not mention that six other guys held Brody's fuzzy boots down during the pin. Brody loses credibility in Japan, even though Geigel booked him to look reasonably strong in Wichita. Both Baba and Inoki were going to pay more than Geigel would. It makes sense that Brody would offer to work for Geigel so long as he didn't have to job.

Not all of Brody's shenanigans are so easy to justify, but it seems to me he'd have been foolish to simply follow the orders of a promoter he temporarily contracted with.

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Antithesis
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quote:
Originally posted by WickedNick1975:
quote:
Originally posted by Jeff Luce:
Too many people give Brody a free pass for his unprofessional behavior. Brody was no better than any other wrestler during his time in the business. He drew money, yeah, so did thousands of others before him. Drawing money doesn't equate to being able to do things that are contrary to the code of "keep wanting to come back for more." How many guys were out of work when Brody killed the Texas All-Star promotion? I'm not talking about the top guys who could move elsewhere, but the guys who put the top guys over. What good did that do?

Refusing to do a job in a worked sport is stupid behavior. What made Brody so special that he felt he didn't have to do the occasional JOB? Nothing. Wrestlers of a far larger magnitude would take the fall. Name one North American promotion where Brody worked long term. Can't say World Class because he was in and out of there more times than some folks change their underwear. The same thing can be said for Southwest.

Why should promoters and bookers deal with a guy who was out for self and not the betterment of the business. I have spoken to a few wrestlers who say the same thing. He was good for business in the beginning, but eventually, he would do something that hurt the promotion he was working for.

I'm sure what I've said is going to cheese some people off, but I'm calling it like I see it.

Shawn Michaels, like Martin Tori said, never killed a promotion. Did he do things that were detrimental to the promotion he was working for? Everywhere he worked stayed in business after he left. Of course other than WWE, those promotions don't exist today, but that can't be put on Michaels' shoulders.

Shawn never had the opportunity to kill a promotion.

But yeah, your right about Brody. Bock and Harley were heavily chastised for saying what you just said except adding that some promoters could be dangerous and the above type activity could lead to tragedy.

Actually Undertaker, on an episode of OTR, recounted a story where at Wrestlemania backstage Shawn balked at dropping the belt to Austin, Undertaker said he began to tape up his fists and made it clear what he would do to Shawn if he didn't 'do business'.

A stunt like that could have possibly killed WWE at the time.

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JWLPromoter from FL
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quote:
Originally posted by Antithesis:
Actually Undertaker, on an episode of OTR, recounted a story where at Wrestlemania backstage Shawn balked at dropping the belt to Austin, Undertaker said he began to tape up his fists and made it clear what he would do to Shawn if he didn't 'do business'.

A stunt like that could have possibly killed WWE at the time.

I've heard that story too, though not with that much detail. Shawn had suffered his "career-ending" back injury two months earlier in the casket match with UT at the Royal Rumble, which was why Savio Vega of all people was in the Austin/Owen/Cactus/Funk-DX (HHH/NAO) match at No Way Out of Texas in February.

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SteveHarms87
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For what it's worth..........

From WWE contract:

13. MISCELLANEOUS

13.1 Nothing contained in this Agreement shall be construed to constitute TALENT as an employee, partner or joint venturer of COMPANY, nor shall TALENT have any authority to bind COMPANY in any respect. TALENT is an independent contractor and TALENT shall execute and hereby irrevocably appoints COMPANY attorney-in-fact to execute, if TALENT refuses to do so, any instruments necessary to accomplish or confirm the foregoing or any and all of the rights granted to COMPANY herein.

13.2 This Agreement contains the entire understanding of the parties with respect to the subject matter hereof and all prior booking contracts entered into between COMPANY and TALENT and as amended are merged into this Agreement. There are no other agreements, representations, or warranties not set forth herein with respect to the subject matter hereof; and the parties expressly acknowledge that any representation, promise or inducement by any party to any other party that is not
embodied in this Agreement is not part of this Agreement, and they agree that no party shall be bound by or liable for any such alleged representation, promise or inducement not set forth herein.

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SteveHarms87
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One of the problems for wrestlers, especially ones who come back and try to challenge their position as an independent contractor, is the fact they have signed the "contract" agreeing to that status as put forth in section 13.1 of the WWE agreement. So the wrestler is actually challenging the contractual definition of "independent contractor" rather than the company. And as Bnicholas pointed out, there aren't enough people affected by this to make it an issue. Can you imagine the cost to the plaintiff for something like this? WWE could keep it going for years.

There are specific parts of the WWE contract that address some of the points Bnicholas listed above. The contract specifically states that the TALENT will be responsible for all federal and state taxes as well as FICA etc.

WCW was more generous with travel costs etc. In theory, the company paid for rental cars and flights. In actuality, all the top names had limos, cars and hotels paid by WCW. But all of these perks were spelled out specifically in the individual contract so that no one could claim it was company policy......this helped WCW protect the IC obligation.

All wrestlers also file taxes on Form 1099......specifically designed for independent contractors. They also have to pay "duty day" state taxes in every state they work.....as independent contractors.

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C.C. Milani from NY
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Doesn't matter. If the WWE puts "you are a squirrel" in a contract and someone signed it, it wouldn't necessarily make it true.

BNicholas nailed it - for pro wrestling purposes the IC designation became outdated ages ago, but the government hasn't gotten around to updating it.

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Bnicholas
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While I've heard the "you signed it, tough luck" argument before, the courts don't generally see contracts that way. An illegal contract is still an illegal contract regardless of whether both parties agreed and regardless of how knowledgeable both parties were of their legal rights. This is actually a fairly common split between so-called conservative judges and more centrist and liberal judges. To no one's suprised based on other aspects of the conservative political philosophy, some conservative judges have been known to throw cases out of court based on the "buyer beware" rule of thumb. If the wrestler signed it, then that's their tough luck. However, and IMO thankfully, the majority of justices and courts don't see it that way. And in addition to a wrestler merely claiming ignorance or finding a court sympathetic to the idea that contracts that are illegal are illegal regardless of mutual agreement between parties, one could argue that with the limited opportunities for professional wrestlers, particularly to ply their trade full time for a liveable income, the WWE is coercing talent into signing an illegal contract.

Sure the WWE lawyers are smart enough to cover their butts, or atleast try, by putting in language such as SteveHarms quotes, but that doesn't make it legitimate language nor does it reflect the reality of a situation.

Today's WWE wrestler is told when to show up, how to look, given a script, told he can't work elsewhere, must give up rights to their character (that's a biggie I forgot to mention earlier, having to sign away the rights to your character name/intellectual property is a sure sign of an employer/employee relationship and not a independent contractor relationship), even how to look when they travel. There is almost no autonomy for a WWE wrestler. The only autonomy is having to book their own travel, which is not quite what the independent contractor law had in mind.

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Portalesman
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quote:
Originally posted by SteveHarms87:

All wrestlers also file taxes on Form 1099......specifically designed for independent contractors. They also have to pay "duty day" state taxes in every state they work.....as independent contractors.

Bottom line, thats it in a nutshell. As much as the IWC wishes the Independant Contractors/rasslers were the same as the guy who serves up slurpees at a 7/11 in between drama and poly sci classes at the local community college, they arent. The legal definition of the IC itself will not be changed so that some 60 pro wres fighters on the television can get their paid insurance coverage.
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