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Author Topic: World title lineage diagram
haku raion
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Hi folks

I've been working on a diagram showing the various versions of the NWA and AWA world heavyweight championships and related titles, from George Hackenschmidt to Adam Pearce.

Enjoy!

Here's the link to the download (PDF):
http://nwawrestle.weebly.com/uploads/1/8/0/9/1809845/nwachart.pdf

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jkeats
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Wow that's really cool.
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Crimson Mask from FL
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Real nice work. There are even some other lines you could incorporate. There's an early one with John Olin for example. Searching the Thesz board would be a good start.

So long from the Sunshine State!

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If you lames are the master race, my money's on the mud people.---Andrew Vachss

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Crimson Mask from FL
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But even as is this is good enough that I'm gonna sticky it.

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If you lames are the master race, my money's on the mud people.---Andrew Vachss

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haku raion
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Thanks guys. I'll look into the Olin line and try and tidy it up a little.
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MIDNIGHT RAIDER
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WOW. Very cool!!!! Lots of work. Great job.
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djangoska
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2 thumbs way up!!

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SLS
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Awesome!
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haku raion
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Thanks guys I'm blushing now ;-)
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haku raion
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By the way I was going to list the WCW world title on there to its continuation as the WWE heavyweight title but I couldn't bear to have names like David Arquette and Vince Russo on the same page as the likes of Lou Thesz. I hope you understand!
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haku raion
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Just updated it to include the Olin line. I've also tried to tidy it up a bit. With significant multiple time champions I've done their title wins like this:

Ric Flair [10] [12]

which in this case means its his 10th NWA title but his 12th title overall if you include the two WWF ones. If you see what I mean.

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WickedNick1975
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Great job.

Two things jump out at me.

1) I never realized it before and I prolly should have. Every NWA title change for 12 years either had Flair winning or losing. In my mind, that is every bit as impressive as Bruno's run. Just because he won and lost the belt, he was still the featured attraction of the title for 12 years.

2) I didn't see Ric Flair, Hulk Hogan, Lou Thesz, William Muldoon, Farmer Burns or Abe Lincoln in Dale Gagne's AWA title history. Didn't Gagne advertise that all those guys were in title matches at some point or another? You'd think they'd have won one of them.

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haku raion
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I agree about Flair in the 1980s. If anything his reigns are more impressive because he was champion of a large network, whereas Bruno was champion of one company.

According to Wikipedia, Flair's NWA title reigns (between 1981 and 1993) equal 3101 days as champion. He also spent 118 days as WWE champion and 501 days as WCW champion between 1991 and 2000 and 63 days as WCW International champion, so by my reckoning Flair spent 3,783 days as a world champion which is about ten and a half years. It still falls shy of Bruno's combined 4040 days as champion - but I bet Flair made at least twice as many title defences and I bet most of those matches were twice as long as Bruno's.

Regarding Dale Gagne, I think the only revisions he made to AWA history were to achknowledge Hulk Hogan's two "Dusty finish" reigns which of course should not be recognised.

To be honest I'm surprised the present NWA only traces its title lineage back to 1948, when PWI recognises the lineage back to 1905, as did JCP/WCW. Of course as we all know the NWAlliance title as we know it was founded in 48 but when Thesz won that belt forefeit by Orville Brown, the lineage was considered to come from the NWAssociation which was the belt Thesz had previously held, hence him always being referred to as a 6 time world champ by WCW. Of course, as you'll see from my lineage Thesz was actually something like a 12 time world champion but some of these were minor versions of the title and others were unifications.

Thesz did of course hold one version of a belt called the AWA title but I don't think Dale Gagner ever attempted to cash in on this, and regarding Flair he left the AWA before he was considered world championship material.

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Playboy Dain
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Good job with this!
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Crimson Mask from FL
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The NWA lineage to the NWAssociation is more of a work than not. This is covered on the Thesz board, somewhere. The famous 'official' title lineage with the infamous 'Gotch-Hack 1905' error, parroted down through the years by PWI and JCP/WCW and whoever else, was the creation of the Assn. The Alliance pretty much bogarted it wholesale, with the interesting asterisk that at first, the business with Thesz being the Assn. champ and Brown the Aliiance champ, and the unification match being derailed by Brown's car wreck and the title voted onto Thesz, was handled truthfully and accurately, and then in subsequent versions, that all disappeared and Thesz' title reign was dated from his 1937 Assn. title win over Longson.

In only going back to '48, the current Alliance is actually being a little more accurate, in terms of trademark anyway.

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If you lames are the master race, my money's on the mud people.---Andrew Vachss

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Dan P-170
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quote:
Originally posted by haku raion:
According to Wikipedia, Flair's NWA title reigns (between 1981 and 1993) equal 3101 days as champion. He also spent 118 days as WWE champion and 501 days as WCW champion between 1991 and 2000 and 63 days as WCW International champion, so by my reckoning Flair spent 3,783 days as a world champion which is about ten and a half years.

The 63 day reign in 1993 includes his 10th NWA title that he won from Barry Windham on July 18th at Beach Blast combined with the "World title" he lost to Rick Rude at Fall Brawl on September 19th.

It was recognized as the NWA title by WCW until September 1st when they withdrew from the NWA. From that point on, WCW started billing Flair as just "World heavyweight champion", although the NWA name was still used a few times on television due to shoddy post production.

The NWA still recognized the title until the middle of the month as they were trying to negotiate a settlement with WCW that would allow the championship to be moved from Rick Rude (who was scheduled to win the belt from Flair at Fall Brawl) to a wrestler chosen by the NWA on an NWA show.

On or around September 15th, negotiations fell through and an attempt at getting a court injunction to stop WCW from promoting the Flair-Rude match as any kind of world title bout was unsuccessful. From that point on, Flair's "World title" was not recognized by the NWA and Rude went onto win the title four days later.

It didn't become known as the "WCW International World title" until October. On the October 9th edition of WCW Saturday Night, it was announced that WCW only recognized one world champion, that being the WCW World champion Vader, and that Rude's "title" was just a gold belt. At Halloween Havoc on October 24th, it was announced that the WCW International Board of Directors, aka "WCW International", an international body of promoters ala the NWA, officially recognized the gold belt as a world title.

[ 05-06-2012, 04:23 PM: Message edited by: Dan Poutsma ]

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haku raion
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Crimson - I take your point about the 1905 "worked" lineage but don't forget that when Thesz was awarded the NWAlliance title he was not stripped of the NWAssociation title. He was the unified champion thereby laying claim to both lineages. The NWAssociation existed until at least the 1970s and recognised the NWA champion as their own, as has been pointed out on this forum and I've also detailed it on my website here: http://nwawrestle.weebly.com/the-nwa-heritage.html
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haku raion
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Dan - thanks for the clarification about Flair's WCWInt reign. It was handled very badly by WCW at the time, in fact the WWE do a better job of justifying having two world titles in one company and that's saying something!

I think my point stands however that Flair was a world champion for over 10 years, which is easily comparable to the length reigns of Sammartino and co.

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Crimson Mask from FL
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quote:
Originally posted by haku raion:
Crimson - I take your point about the 1905 "worked" lineage but don't forget that when Thesz was awarded the NWAlliance title he was not stripped of the NWAssociation title. He was the unified champion thereby laying claim to both lineages. The NWAssociation existed until at least the 1970s and recognised the NWA champion as their own, as has been pointed out on this forum and I've also detailed it on my website here: http://nwawrestle.weebly.com/the-nwa-heritage.html

Yeah, it's sort of a 'needs an asterisk' thing.

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Meth via PA
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Great work.

It would be awesome to integrate a mouseover effect, so when you highlight a certain branch it would pop-up in a window like lightbox.

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haku raion
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I'm not really that computer savvy but I am working on a history of the world title elsewhere on my site: http://nwawrestle.weebly.com/story-of-the-title-part-1.html
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haku raion
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Part 2: http://nwawrestle.weebly.com/story-of-the-title-part-2.html

Part 3: http://nwawrestle.weebly.com/story-of-the-title-part-3.html

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Portalesman
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I cant imagine the amount of time put into this project. Nice work.
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elguapo1000%
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Ver,very cool. I love the rich history of the world's heavyweight crown. Outstanding job. I downloaded in the book section for my ipad.
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haku raion
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Thanks for your kind words guys. I've decided to add the WWE, tna and ECW titles on there. It probably needs tidying up but here it is so far:


http://nwawrestle.weebly.com/uploads/1/8/0/9/1809845/wwe_layout_1.pdf

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Mr. 1derful
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Once again, outstanding work.

It seems to me that even among all the dross that has apperaed periodically on the table (and I'm not even considering the Vinces and Arquette), that the name 'Mikey Whipwreck' just should not belong on a table that emanates from guys like Thesz, Lewis, Gotch etc etc etc.

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haku raion
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But then again, Mikey Whipwreck was the Danno O'Mahoney of his day! Even in the old days for every Strangler Lewis there was a Wayne Munn!

I used to think that Dusty Rhodes and Shohei Baba were the first world champions with no real grappling ability but if you turn the clock back further there were always the ex football players, the giants, the cowboys etc who got by on their charisma.

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TexasWrestling
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quote:
Originally posted by haku raion:
I agree about Flair in the 1980s. If anything his reigns are more impressive because he was champion of a large network, whereas Bruno was champion of one company.

According to Wikipedia, Flair's NWA title reigns (between 1981 and 1993) equal 3101 days as champion. He also spent 118 days as WWE champion and 501 days as WCW champion between 1991 and 2000 and 63 days as WCW International champion, so by my reckoning Flair spent 3,783 days as a world champion which is about ten and a half years. It still falls shy of Bruno's combined 4040 days as champion - but I bet Flair made at least twice as many title defences and I bet most of those matches were twice as long as Bruno's.

Flair was a champion of a large network from 1981 to 1985 or 1986. Once Crockett had full control of the NWA title, Flair became a champion of one company. I would say his first three reigns was when he was champion of a larger network.

Look at Flair 1988 title defenses. The only reason Sting and Luger looked good was because of the amount of times they wrestled Flair. http://www.wrestling-titles.com/nwa/world/nwa-h-matches/1980s/nwa-h-matches1988.html

Unlike Flair, Bruno built the company the WWWF and he did defend his title against a multitude of opponents from 1963 to 1977. He wrestled Waldo Von Erich for an hour and half, Gene Kiniski, Ivan Kolloff, Johnny Powers, Superstar Billy Graham, Ernie Ladd and the list goes on. For Bruno the money was good and the promoters needed him to stay in the Northeast. Bruno may have saved the WWWF from bankruptcy when he wrestled Stan Hansen in a rematch with a broken neck. Unlike Starcade 1987, Flair could not save Jim Crockett. Bruno pinned Bruiser Brody unlike Ric Flair or Nick Bockwinkle or any other world champion. Bruno had more of a chance winning as champion than Ric Flair, which made Ric Flair look like a weak champion.

To be fair Flair did build WCW from 1988-1991, but once Hogan and the NWO came well…

Unlike Flair, Bruno could shoot, he probably beat Buddy Rogers for real and scared Antonio Inoki when he tried to hurt Bruno under the possible direction of Karl Gotch in Japan. Flair needed Harely to protect him in Japan.

In the 1960’s it was proposed that Bruno would beat Lou Thesz for the NWA title. The deal fell through. Still, if Lou had graciously agreed to lose and the NWA title been defended exclusively in the Northeast because New York is center of wrestling as stated in the WWE Roundtable, the NWA title might have survived as a major title today. However with the way wrestling has changed, I doubt Lou or even Bruno care about their title lineage continuing.

[ 05-14-2012, 11:40 AM: Message edited by: TexasWrestling ]

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haku raion
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I think the matter of being able to "shoot" is something of a grey area. Everyone can fight to one degree or another. Nobuhiko Takada could shoot but he didn't do much against the Gracies did he?

Similarly even wrestlers who aren't regarded as very tough are probably tougher than the average person.

Flair was a decent amateur wrestler and he went through the Gagne-Robinson bootcamp (I know I'm telling you things you already know). In the 1970s and early to mid 1980s I think Flair would have been a fairly reasonable fighter. His matches against Tenryu and Vader were hardly tickling contests were they.

As for Bruno beating Rogers in a shoot. Rogers was never very tough and after a heart attack? That match strikes me as similar to the one last year where Sting put Jeff Hardy away. Bruno didn't annihilate Rogers like Dan Severn would, he hooked him quickly.

To say Flair never went over Brody but Sammartino did is neither here nor there. Flair beat plenty of tough guys including Harley Race. Flair plays down his own shooting ability (the thing about Race coming to the ring with him is something of conjecture) but I think he was a decent grappler in his younger days.

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TexasWrestling
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Thanks for the diagram of the NWA and AWA world heavyweight championships and related titles

Ric Flair was one of my favorite wrestlers when growing up.Flair was a tremendous worker, I loved his promos, his hair, his gimmick and his performance was fun to see, even though his choreography could be repetitive. But to see him as World Champion struggle with George South, Mike Von Erich, Ricky Morton or Sam Houston was pretty pathetic; he should have squashed these guys within five minutes. Hulk Hogan would never have this problem as champion.

His match with Vader where his teeth were loose and bleeding showed how tough he could be in the ring. The Vader match where he won the title had violence and was one of Flair’s last original matches.

Flair mentions in his book that he had to have Harely Race’s help to convince the NWA board he was tough enough to be NWA champion since it was a requirement you had to be able to handle yourself in the ring should things get out of hand and not lose the title. This was a rule in all 3 organizations, Hulk Hogan changed this rule in the WWF, I cannot say if Flair changed the rule again in the NWA even though Buddy Rogers appears to be an exception. If Flair had any shooting ability, I wished he had used on the match he lost to Eric Bischoff Starcade for screwing him with this WCW lawsuit. That is pretty sad he lost to Bischoff on pay per view.

Here is Bruno’s account of his defeat of Buddy Rogers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3ef7ZUVB0s

[ 05-24-2012, 10:56 PM: Message edited by: TexasWrestling ]

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haku raion
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As well as Buddy Rogers, how about Dusty Rhodes, Danno O'Mahoney, Wayne Munn, Eduoard Carpentier, Giant Baba....

Flair was by no means the first world champion who wasn't a "shooter" like Thesz or Brisco or a tough guy like Race, but compare Flair's wrestling ability to some who came after in the big three like Kerry Von Erich and Jerry Lawler (or the Ultimate Warrior)....

And I'd take Flair over Hogan in a shoot any day of the week.

As for the Vader match being the last of Flair's original matches, check out his "Marquis of Queensbury" series with Steve Regal that came shortly after. Flair demonstrated mat wrestling that Verne Gagne would have been proud of! And more significantly Flair did not use his "routine" in any of these matches.

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Crimson Mask from FL
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Oh spare me Bruno's BS. They did the exact same match as a dark match on the DC TV card except with a NC finish three weeks before.

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If you lames are the master race, my money's on the mud people.---Andrew Vachss

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TexasWrestling
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quote:
Originally posted by Crimson Mask from FL:
Oh spare me Bruno's BS. They did the exact same match as a dark match on the DC TV card except with a NC finish three weeks before.

I apologize for annoying you with the Bruno's BS. He always sounds honest.

What matches are you talking about, the Stan Hansen or Buddy Rogers match?

[ 05-15-2012, 10:31 PM: Message edited by: TexasWrestling ]

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Crimson Mask from FL
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Wasn't anything personal. The Rogers match.

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If you lames are the master race, my money's on the mud people.---Andrew Vachss

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PCmor
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This is really outstanding work. Thanks for sharing it.
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haku raion
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Thanks again for the nice comments.

I've decided to do a more ambitious version. This time as well as including the main NWA,WWF, AWA, WCW, TNA, ECW lines, I've also included pictures of every mainline "NWA"* world champion from George Hackenschmidt to Colt Cobana:

http://nwawrestle.weebly.com/uploads/1/8/0/9/1809845/nwalarge.pdf

*I know the NWA began with Orville Brown etc, but I prefer the main line lineage

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TexasWrestling
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Since Lou Thesz’s original belt is being tracked. Lou Thesz was working for Joe Blanchard’s Southwest Championship Wrestling in the 1980’s as a commissioner. He presented the original belt to the winner of Southwest Championship Wrestling World title tournament Adrian Adonis.

Prior to this Southwest Championship Wrestling would feature Nick Bockwinkle the AWA champion as the world champion. Once this small promotion received a slot on the USA Network, they felt it was time to expand their promotion by having their own World Champion. The title was referred to as the World Champion not the SCW World Champion as written for historical tracking. On May 26, 1983 in Houston Texas Adrian Adonis won the tournament and was presented Lou Thesz’s title belt and a replica of NWA title belonging to Terry Funk. Ric Flair, Nick Bockwinkle and Bob Backlund were supposedly invited to the tournament and refused to go. Of course I do not think Lou would give away his belt, it was used to give this title legitimacy.

The promotion lost their USA Network time slot to the WWF and World Class with the Von Erichs in their prime was massively outselling Southwest Championship Wrestling in their own Texas Territory. In July-August of 1983 Southwest Wrestling announced at Harlandale Stadium in San Antonio Adrian Adonis versus Nick Bockwinkle for a title unification. I originally thought the AWA was going to try to save Southwest Wrestling. However there were no promos from either man that I am aware of. When the match happened Steve Staks said Nick did not want to show up and Dick Murdoch came in his place. Lou Thesz was present at the event. Dick Murdoch won the match on August 20,1983 and was announced as the new champion. Adrain Adonis took a brain buster I believe, he was laying on the mat hurt, and an ambulance came to the stadium to carry him out in a stretcher. When I tuned in to Southwest Wrestling next week there was an announcement Dick had not won the match and the title was declared vacant. A rematch would follow. This never happened from what I know. Nor were there any promos from Adonis. Scott Casey fictitiously won the title from Adonis in St Louis Missouri on 08/30/83 and the title was retired.






[ 05-24-2012, 04:37 PM: Message edited by: TexasWrestling ]

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BERT from NJ
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quote:
Originally posted by TexasWrestling:
The title was referred to as the World Champion not the SCW World Champion as written for historical tracking.

As I recall, it was incessantly referred to as "the UNDISPUTED World Heavyweight Champion"

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haku raion
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Texaswrestling,

That's great info on the southwest belt. I did think of adding it but I wasn't sure where best to connect it to the lineage. I suppose it could go inbetween Flair and Bockwinkel. I may add it to the next version.

It's a similar angle to what Mr Thesz did in the UWFI when Takada challenged Chono, Vader etc.

Back then (1992 or 93) I was under the impression the UWFI was a shoot (I don't believe I was alone) and so it seemed viable that Takada would send out these challenges, knowing that the likes of Hulk Hogan wouldn't have a chance against him.

I also felt Takada's claim to the world title had more credibility since the NWA lineage had been broken when Flair joined the WWF. I saw it as Chono and Takada, both students of Thesz both having a decent claim to the world title. Which is also why I added the UWFI to the lineage.

For a worker like Adonis to do it, especially against the likes of Flair and Bockwinkel, it didn't have the same credibility.

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Crimson Mask from FL
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There are at least three copies of the Thesz belt that I know of. I don't think anybody is really sure which one was used in which angle.

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If you lames are the master race, my money's on the mud people.---Andrew Vachss

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