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Author Topic: So when do I owe royalties?
Crimson Mask from FL
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Decided to sticky this because of how often related matters come up.

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If you lames are the master race, my money's on the mud people.---Andrew Vachss

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sad dog cuzz sawyer from IL
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Mask you tricked me. I thought that Grey Ghost came out of hibernation.

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The Outlaw J.D. McKay (better?,,,)
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Back from the dead would be more like it, sad dog.

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shortchick
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i just wish bmi would pay us idies better then they do i've been geting a lot of my musiic played but have not gotten a dime since 2007 sooo i'm hoping now that one of my songs is number one on one of the indie charts i'll get something
but like the irs they do go after there money but us indies at lest i don't get paid very often

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Troy Lowe
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How about this scenario...I have a retail store. I, or my employees, bring our own music to the store to play while we're working. Am I breaking any laws by playing this music since it's in a workplace where we sell items to the public?
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Crimson Mask from FL
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If the public is hearing it, yup. You're providing your own Muzak, essentially.

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midsouthfan from N.O.
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Ok, I apologize if this is a stupid question, or if it's already been covered here...but my crazy brain won't let me read every post. [Smile]

But there is a 80's cover band that plays on the coast and is very popular.

1.) All of their songs are covers, so how does that effect ticket prices and/or their payout, and what the venue will need to pay.

2.) They have a few music videos that use cuts from actual music videos - ie, Breakfast Club, where they slice in their own band at different parts. How is that handled?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GkVU-KNJch8

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Crimson Mask from FL
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1. The venues have to have their licenses up to date. Has nothing to do with ticket prices or their payout. The joints have to have the licenses anyway.

2. I don't see any original cuts in what you linked. I see this band doing imitations of the original cuts which is an infringement all by itself as far as I can tell. Using the actual cuts would be a double infringement. I think they could get sued just for their name let alone their schtick.

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If you lames are the master race, my money's on the mud people.---Andrew Vachss

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Crimson Mask from FL
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(Might slip through on 'parody'.)

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If you lames are the master race, my money's on the mud people.---Andrew Vachss

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I shop at One Stop
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Ok, this came up on another forum I frequent. Some guy with a tiny underground record label is doing a tribute album of a band. Various bands doing covers of one band's songs. Does the record label need the permission of the band being given tribute?

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Crimson Mask from FL
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No. As we covered here, all they have to do legally is pay the statutory fee to the Harry Fox Agency. See page 1.

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If you lames are the master race, my money's on the mud people.---Andrew Vachss

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Crimson Mask from FL
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(That's for the covers per se. There may be trademark issues with using the band's name, logos, etc.)

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tamalie from MN
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Pro wrestling promotions in the 1980s seemed to use popular music for entrances, bumpers, and video packages with seemingly no care for things like rights and royalties. So it came as a surprise to me to watch the first edition of UWF Wrestling from March of 1986, after the switch over from Mid-South, and see in the closing credits "Music Licensed By ASCAP".
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Norrin Radd
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The 1982 Neil Diamond song "Heartlight" was inspired by the movie ET. The songwriters, Diamond, Carole Bayer Sager and Burt Bacharach were required to pay Universal Studios $25,000 for it. The song never specifically mentions an alien or even ET by name.

Not being facetious here, so if I write a song about the wonders of space exploration, do I have to pay Boeing, Lockheed Martin, NASA, the Gene Roddenberry estate, the HG Wells estate, Disney, etc. a royalty? They all have a hand in what we know and love about outer space, and without them I have no inspiration to write the song.

I know that it's reductio ad absurdum, but if you've got to pay a royalty anytime you're inspired by something where does it stop?

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jorjorbynks
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quote:
Originally posted by Norrin Radd:
The 1982 Neil Diamond song "Heartlight" was inspired by the movie ET. The songwriters, Diamond, Carole Bayer Sager and Burt Bacharach were required to pay Universal Studios $25,000 for it. The song never specifically mentions an alien or even ET by name.

Not being facetious here, so if I write a song about the wonders of space exploration, do I have to pay Boeing, Lockheed Martin, NASA, the Gene Roddenberry estate, the HG Wells estate, Disney, etc. a royalty? They all have a hand in what we know and love about outer space, and without them I have no inspiration to write the song.

I know that it's reductio ad absurdum, but if you've got to pay a royalty anytime you're inspired by something where does it stop?

I would guess that the songwriters had to pay because they used ideas from the film in their song, specifically the "heartlight". E.T's glowing heart was an idea that was original to the film. As far as I know, there were no movies or stories about aliens with glowing hearts, and that wasn't a commonly accepted feature of alien descriptions.

So had Diamond and Co. written a song about a happy go lucky alien, they would have been fine. It was the incorporating elements/ideas from the film into the song that caused the issue.

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Norrin Radd
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The Pink Floyd album "Animals" was directly inspired by "Animal Farm", and I don't believe Roger Waters had to pay a royalty to George Orwell's estate. The only difference between the two is that the book was a condemnation of communism and the album was a condemnation of capitalism.

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“If you can convince the lowest white man he’s better than the best colored man, he won’t notice you’re picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he’ll empty his pockets for you.” - Lyndon Baines Johnson

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jorjorbynks
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quote:
Originally posted by Norrin Radd:
The Pink Floyd album "Animals" was directly inspired by "Animal Farm", and I don't believe Roger Waters had to pay a royalty to George Orwell's estate. The only difference between the two is that the book was a condemnation of communism and the album was a condemnation of capitalism.

I'm not really that familiar with the album, but while it may reference "Pigs" and "Sheep", it probably doesn't mention "Napolean the Pig" or other characters specifically created by Orwell.

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Norrin Radd
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I'm not directly quoting you Jorjor to avoid a hellacious vortex. LOL.

To answer your question, there's no specific mention of character names in "Dogs", "Pigs (Three Different) Ones" or "Sheep".

Both parts of "Pigs on the Wing" are a love song to the new lady in Waters' life at the time he wrote the album.

Now I get it on "Heartlight". While there's no mention of an alien or ET directly, I think the line in the chorus "Gonna take a ride across the moon" is where Universal got them. Besides the "heartlight" that line is the only thing movie specific in the song.

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“If you can convince the lowest white man he’s better than the best colored man, he won’t notice you’re picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he’ll empty his pockets for you.” - Lyndon Baines Johnson

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Crimson Mask from FL
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'Ideas' are not copyrightable. SPECIFIC EXPRESSIONS FIXED IN FORM are copyrightable. I don't think there was ever any question about 'Heartlight'.

Characters per se and character names are NOT copyrightable. They may be TRADEMARKED. I'm not familiar enough with Pink Floyd thing to really guess intelligently what the deal might be there.

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Crimson Mask from FL
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But reading a little about it suggests strongly that if whoever holds the rights to Animal Farm wanted to press the issue, they'd be successful. Seems like more than enough specific points of similarity.

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Norrin Radd
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I'm kinda pressed for time, so I'll go through "Animals" as fast as I can right now. I'll answer anything specific later today.

In "Dogs" the old dog, sung by David Gilmour, is telling the young dog how to live life as a dog. The young dog, sung by Roger Waters, responds back basically saying he doesn't understand why dogs have to live as ruthless aggressors.

In "Pigs (Three Different Ones)" the first pig is about the captains of industry (which is how I see it).

The second pig is about politicians, while not specifically mentioned by name, is generally regarded as Margaret Thatcher prior to her becoming PM of the UK.

The third pig is about the moral majority and specifically mentions Mary Whitehouse, who at the time was espousing what Waters perceived as dangerous religious ideas.

"Sheep" is basically about the people who are kept under control by the dogs who in turn are controlled by the pigs. The sheep rise up, take out the dogs and go right back to their workaday lives.

Like I said before, both parts of "Pigs on the Wing" are a love song to Waters new lady.

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“If you can convince the lowest white man he’s better than the best colored man, he won’t notice you’re picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he’ll empty his pockets for you.” - Lyndon Baines Johnson

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Crimson Mask from FL
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Really'd have to hear it, and reread the book for that matter.

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Wolverine
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Power Metal band Blind Guardian have written several songs based off of science fiction and fantasy (including a whole album based off The Simarllion), yet i never hear about them having to pay rights (go to the bottom of this page to see all the works they've sung about):

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Music/BlindGuardian

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Crimson Mask from FL
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Again, buncha possible factors. Maybe they flew under the radar. Maybe they obtained permission. Maybe the authors didn't care. Maybe they didn't directly quote enough to constitute copyright infringement. Maybe they didn't use actual trademarked names or titles. Maybe it wasn't seen as confusion in marketplace because of the different medium. Maybe maybe maybe,

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Crimson Mask from FL
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But here's a new stick for the bundle: PERFORMER (as vs. composer & assigns) residuals.

http://mag.newsweek.com/2014/02/21/putting-price-radio-play.html

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Norrin Radd
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I was curious if Blue Oyster Cult paid a royalty to the owners of the Godzilla copyright and trademark for their song "Godzilla". Apparently they paid an undisclosed amount of money. The owners of the Godzilla copyright and trademark are very vigilant in protecting its IP. They have filed numerous lawsuits against entities who've poached anything Godzilla related.

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“If you can convince the lowest white man he’s better than the best colored man, he won’t notice you’re picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he’ll empty his pockets for you.” - Lyndon Baines Johnson

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the bear
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watched a show on tv here the other day that covered (as best they could work out in the murky world of music royalties) which songs had made the most money

Note, royalties, not sales

Happy Birthday was number 1

posting here as they discussed who owes what when at some points

Was an interesting watch -



[ 04-10-2014, 02:59 AM: Message edited by: the bear ]

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Crimson Mask from FL
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http://www.americansongwriter.com/2014/06/songwriter-u-rosanne-cash-testifies-congress-defense-artists-rights/

/\THIS

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Norrin Radd
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Whoa, whoa, whoa. Hold up. Rosanne Cash only got paid $114.00 on 600,000 streams? WTF? I subscribe to Sirius-XM, Spotify and Pandora for one purpose. That purpose is to support my favorite music acts even though I long ago bought their albums. I listen to the streaming because I've gotten way more than my money's worth from the albums I own. Maybe naive of me to have thought this, but I figured I was responsible for $100 going to my favorite artists every month by the amount of music I listen to daily.

This is total BS, and it needs to change.

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“If you can convince the lowest white man he’s better than the best colored man, he won’t notice you’re picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he’ll empty his pockets for you.” - Lyndon Baines Johnson

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K. Fabian McClinch
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quote:
Originally posted by Norrin Radd:
Whoa, whoa, whoa. Hold up. Rosanne Cash only got paid $114.00 on 600,000 streams? WTF? I subscribe to Sirius-XM, Spotify and Pandora for one purpose. That purpose is to support my favorite music acts even though I long ago bought their albums. I listen to the streaming because I've gotten way more than my money's worth from the albums I own. Maybe naive of me to have thought this, but I figured I was responsible for $100 going to my favorite artists every month by the amount of music I listen to daily.

This is total BS, and it needs to change.

Yup -- sure does. Many thanks to CM for posting that Roseanne Cash link. I was going to stick it on here myself, but I wasn't sure whether folks were still checking out this thread all that much.

It's getting pretty bad when an entire generation believes that virtually everything that could possibly be considered "information" is (or should be) free, and when hackers who rip off intellectual/artistic workers and disseminate their stuff without permission are hailed as anti-corporate anarcho-populists, instead of the deadbeat exploiters they really are.

Why so many alleged "leftists" and "progressives" who'd normally fight for workers to retain control of the fruits of their labor have a blind spot when it comes to intellectual or artistic "work" is beyond me, but I guess it has something to do with the overall anti-aesthetic/anti-intellectual bias of dumbed-down American culture . . .

[ 06-30-2014, 12:21 PM: Message edited by: K. Fabian McClinch ]

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Norrin Radd
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I just received an email from Sirius/XM informing me that the US Music Royalty Fee will increase 1.4 percent beginning on Jan 5, 2015. Of course, the email was to inform subscribers that the fee that's included in your subscription will increase to offset the increase. I have no problem with this and believe every little bit helps support the artist. The good thing about the royalty paid by streaming services is that it isn't limited to just the person(s) who have the songwriting credit. The musicians who also play on the record get a piece of this royalty unlike terrestrial radio.

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Crimson Mask from FL
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Taylor Swift just yanked her back catalogue from Spotify. Despise her music but starting to kinda like her.

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RockyRacoon War Damn Eagle from GA
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My buddy (and excellent Atlanta based Jazz guitarist... look him up. He's legit talented.) Jacob Deaton, who... well, he teaches guitar lessons most of the day every weekday to make ends meet... just pulled his music from spotify and similar services today. Trust me. If he was making anything at all per listen from those services, he'd be happy to have it.

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CONAN
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What about TV theme songs. What do you think The guy who created the Simpsons theme song gets? Does he get royalties everytime it airs? What about reruns and what about the dvd releases? How does that work?
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Crimson Mask from FL
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Generally no, it's a work for hire. One payment.

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If you lames are the master race, my money's on the mud people.---Andrew Vachss

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Wolverine
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Here's another question im wondering about. If a tv set in a movie or tv show has a real life show or movie playing in the background, how do royalties work in that case? For example, in Creepshow, during the Lonesome Death of Jordy Verrill segment, Jordy turns on a tv thats playing a Bob Backlund vs Samu match, with Vince McMahon on commentary. The match is only in the background of the segment though, and not a significant part of the scene. Do Vince, Bob, and Samu still get royalties from this one scene?
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Crimson Mask from FL
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If you don't get performer royalties in the first place, you don't get them on reuse. It's a matter of contract, and nobody got them in wrestling back then. I would assume Vince, or rather WWE, collects as owner of the clip.

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Crimson Mask from FL
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And btw the courts have decided that 'Happy Birthday' is indeed in the Public Domain.

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Crimson Mask from FL
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http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/thr-esq/happy-birthday-copyright-ruled-be-826528

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wild bill From CA
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Royalties

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