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Author Topic: Mass shooting in Dayton, Ohio, at least 10 dead
Dragonstone
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Yep, we can't even wait 24 hours between our mass shootings in this country anymore. Good freaking God.

https://www.whio.com/news/crime--law/police-responding-active-shooting-oregon-district/dHOvgFCs726CylnDLdZQxM/

[ 08-04-2019, 01:01 AM: Message edited by: Dragonstone ]

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Dragonstone
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https://twitter.com/Judahbm/status/1157903517505343488
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Dragonstone
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Finally being picked up by national media, but details are still extremely thin.

There are horrifying videos being posted on Twitter and Facebook of numerous bodies on the sidewalk outside the bar where this happened covered with white sheets.

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Crimson Mask from FL
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I doubt it. In his mind he probably takes credit for them. Problem is, for once he's right.

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Dirko
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quote:
Originally posted by Crimson Mask from FL:
I doubt it. In his mind he probably takes credit for them. Problem is, for once he's right.

Definitely. Stochastic terrorism is what it's called. Unfortunately, there are no laws against it (yet).

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PsychoSem
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So is it time to blame the Dems/Libs on this one after reversing back and looking at the shooters social media? I mean all of their dangerous rhetoric apparently forced this young man to do something drastic and he had no control at all in the situation.

Maybe in turn the GOP can return the favor and send out emails to donors looking for cash to 'save the 2nd'.

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Dragonstone
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quote:
Originally posted by PsychoSem:
[QB] So is it time to blame the Dems/Libs on this one after reversing back and looking at the shooters social media? I mean all of their dangerous rhetoric apparently forced this young man to do something drastic and he had no control at all in the situation.

As soon as you can cite even one example of "dangerous rhetoric" recently used by prominent Democrats that might have inspired the Dayton shooter, you'll have a point.

The Dayton shooter's political leanings appear to be entirely incidental to his perpetration of this vile crime. There is no straight line that can be drawn from his support for Medicare-for-All and his decision to randomly murder 9 people in 30 seconds. And even if you want to say that he was sympathetic to Antifa to make your point, guess what - there isn't a single major elected official in the Democratic Party who actually supports Antifa or their agenda. Also, it's highly doubtful that 2/3 of the victims killed by somebody motivated by Antifa sympathy would be black people. If he went to a country club and took out a bunch of wealthy white Republicans you might have a case.

Contrast that with the El Paso shooter, who used nearly indentical language in his manifesto as the President of the United States in describing how he feels about undocumented immigrants from south of the border.

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PsychoSem
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quote:
Originally posted by Dragonstone:
quote:
Originally posted by PsychoSem:
[QB] So is it time to blame the Dems/Libs on this one after reversing back and looking at the shooters social media? I mean all of their dangerous rhetoric apparently forced this young man to do something drastic and he had no control at all in the situation.

As soon as you can cite even one example of "dangerous rhetoric" recently used by prominent Democrats that might have inspired the Dayton shooter, you'll have a point.

The Dayton shooter's political leanings appear to be entirely incidental to his perpetration of this vile crime. There is no straight line that can be drawn from his support for Medicare-for-All and his decision to randomly murder 9 people in 30 seconds. And even if you want to say that he was sympathetic to Antifa to make your point, guess what - there isn't a single major elected official in the Democratic Party who actually supports Antifa or their agenda. Also, it's highly doubtful that 2/3 of the victims killed by somebody motivated by Antifa sympathy would be black people. If he went to a country club and took out a bunch of wealthy white Republicans you might have a case.

Contrast that with the El Paso shooter, who used nearly indentical language in his manifesto as the President of the United States in describing how he feels about undocumented immigrants from south of the border.

Yes and also specifically said that he didn't do it because of Trump. People had that horrible mindset long before Trump took office and long before he was born.

Anyone set off to murder based on any of the 'go to reasons' like some politician said something, I read 'Catcher in the Rye', I was playing violent video games, etc.

If those things make you want to go kill someone then it would seem you have something majorly wrong with you and shouldn't be allowed near weapons in the first place wouldn't you agree.

Also,

You asked for examples.

You are telling me Obama during Ferguson doesn't fit the bill?

What about Al Sharpton's inflamitory statements inciting riots against the Jewish community?

AOC bashes ICE and says she wants it abolished and suddenly an Antifa activist attacks a detention center and is killed. What was that last month?

So surely you are saying all of them are at fault too for what they said, because 'words matter' right?

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Cory
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You have a couple things incorrect here.

1) the police have already ruled out any political motive for the Dayton shooter. So the fact he was a supporter for Bernie & Warren is irrelevant.

2) El Paso shooter was 16 when Donald took office. He literally used Donald's words and rhetoric as justification to kill Mexicans. While those were not the only reasons, they played a huge part and has not been addressed by Donald yet.

As for your examples, show me where Obama's comments incited anything on Ferguson, where his words were used as justification like happened in El Paso. Hell, show me where AOC's did the same.

The El Paso shooter literally copied word for word Donald's verbiage in his explanation of why he did what he did. So what if he tried to excuse Donnie. His words, their words refute that statement completely.

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PsychoSem
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quote:
Originally posted by Cory:
You have a couple things incorrect here.

1) the police have already ruled out any political motive for the Dayton shooter. So the fact he was a supporter for Bernie & Warren is irrelevant.

2) El Paso shooter was 16 when Donald took office. He literally used Donald's words and rhetoric as justification to kill Mexicans. While those were not the only reasons, they played a huge part and has not been addressed by Donald yet.

As for your examples, show me where Obama's comments incited anything on Ferguson, where his words were used as justification like happened in El Paso. Hell, show me where AOC's did the same.

The El Paso shooter literally copied word for word Donald's verbiage in his explanation of why he did what he did. So what if he tried to excuse Donnie. His words, their words refute that statement completely.

I see you left Sharpton, who President Obama brought back into national prominance, out so I am guessing we agree on Crown Heights.

Obama didn't cause the riots, but he created an all out war on cops through his actions and things he said during Ferguson and Trayvon Martin. The President was reckless with his words and seemed to assume things that ended up not being true with Ferguson, or if true that did not play into what actually happened but into a narrative of division.

He tried to turn it into white cop shoots innocent black man and the facts didn't support that.

Then Dallas happened.

I don't ascribe to blame anyone besides the shooter and perhaps the system for these things happening.

It's funny how there is always a 'reason' to defend someone on the same side as you politically.

My point is that words don't make any average person go out and kill. There has to be some kind of disconnect with that person somewhere for that to happen.

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Cory
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I don't know enough about Sharpton to comment.

You stated Obama and Ferguson as an example that is equal to El Paso's shooter's manifesto. Now you are saying he did not cause the riots. Show me where any of the rioters/cop killers used Obama's words as justification for their actions. Show me where they cited him word for word.

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Cory
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And to add to it, as well, show me where AOC's words were used in the same manner.
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Dragonstone
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quote:
Originally posted by PsychoSem:
Obama didn't cause the riots, but he created an all out war on cops through his actions and things he said during Ferguson and Trayvon Martin.

Name one single example of things Obama said or did that "caused an all out war" on cops. And I don't know what the hell Trayvon Martin has to do with any of that, since there was no cop involved in his murder.
quote:
Originally posted by PsychoSem:
The President was reckless with his words and seemed to assume things that ended up not being true with Ferguson, or if true that did not play into what actually happened but into a narrative of division.

For example?
quote:
Originally posted by PsychoSem:
He tried to turn it into white cop shoots innocent black man and the facts didn't support that.

And the proof of him trying to do that is... what, exactly?

As for Al Sharpton and Crown Heights, congratulations, you found one. Sharpton's rhetoric in that situation was reckless and helped contribute to the riots that took place there.

In 1991.

Nearly 30 years ago. Yeah... you had to go back nearly 30 years to find a comparable instance of a political leader on the left using rhetoric which helped to incite violence.

Congrats, want a cookie?

[ 08-08-2019, 08:32 AM: Message edited by: Dragonstone ]

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Crimson Mask from FL
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https://www.alternet.org/2019/08/conservative-writer-george-will-says-trumps-incitement-of-violence-shows-hes-weak-and-a-national-embarrassment/

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K. Fabian McClinch
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quote:
Originally posted by Crimson Mask from FL:
https://www.alternet.org/2019/08/conservative-writer-george-will-says-trumps-incitement-of-violence-shows-hes-weak-and-a-national-embarrassment/

I'm glad that Will (and others) are being rightly critical of T-Rump . . . but why don't more folks point out the bitter irony of these "face turns" from lifelong right-wing reactionaries who are now confronted by a "[p]Resident" who still shares most of their values 100% but is simply too gauche, vulgar, and "common" to be allowed into their literary cocktail parties?

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PsychoSem
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quote:
Originally posted by Dragonstone:
quote:
Originally posted by PsychoSem:
Obama didn't cause the riots, but he created an all out war on cops through his actions and things he said during Ferguson and Trayvon Martin.

Name one single example of things Obama said or did that "caused an all out war" on cops. And I don't know what the hell Trayvon Martin has to do with any of that, since there was no cop involved in his murder.
quote:
Originally posted by PsychoSem:
The President was reckless with his words and seemed to assume things that ended up not being true with Ferguson, or if true that did not play into what actually happened but into a narrative of division.

For example?
quote:
Originally posted by PsychoSem:
He tried to turn it into white cop shoots innocent black man and the facts didn't support that.

And the proof of him trying to do that is... what, exactly?

As for Al Sharpton and Crown Heights, congratulations, you found one. Sharpton's rhetoric in that situation was reckless and helped contribute to the riots that took place there.

In 1991.

Nearly 30 years ago. Yeah... you had to go back nearly 30 years to find a comparable instance of a political leader on the left using rhetoric which helped to incite violence.

Congrats, want a cookie?

Who brought Sharpton back into the spotlight?

Obama.

Who fanned racial tension by decrying systemic racism in police forces after a situation in which that wasn't exactly the case and it led to officers being killed and continues right up to this day with a lack of respect of the position (see the incident with the water bucket a few weeks ago).

Obama.

If the words in the manifesto mean anything to you and presumably they do since you are quoting them then why are you picking and choosing? If the words match fine, but there are also the words where he says his views were not based on Trump.

Why do you suddenly ignore that fact while placing more weight on everything else?

I am not validating these on the same level of 'word for word', but Obama and other Presidents have been equally divisive, they just haven't been as crass in their methods as Trump.

Either words matter or they don't. You can't say these words matter here, but the words over there are fine without being disingenuous. If you are going to label the President as white supremacist, ignore the multiple times he has spoken out against it, and continue to call anyone that supports him racist by association then you aren't going to be making many friends.

If you are going to state that these things happened directly because of Trump and that he is responsible then you have no choice but to say it's Sanders' fault Scalise got shot, etc. If not then it simply proves what a game it is you are playing in the first place. I assign blame to the shooter and to the system.

We need universal background checks and we need to take care of our mentally ill. No normal sane person reacts in this manner based on anything someone says or any amount of violent video game playing. I really hate when excuses like that get trotted out. I can see the argument that it desensitizes human life, but beyond that I don't think it holds up or there would be many more instances of it happening.

Again, I don't think Trump is a great guy or even a nice person, but when people take things he said, like with Baltimore being 'infested', and then try to make that about him being racist when it was very clear what he was stating it only lends to his 'witch hunt' narrative.

This is a guy the left should be able to beat without even resorting to these tactics if one is to believe how dangerous, stupid and ignorant he is. All they have to do is run on something viable that appeals to the moderates that still make up most of their party and a large portion of the United States.

So why can't they do it?

I state that as someone that didn't vote for Trump but also accepts that he is what we have right now. Provide me a realistic opposition candidate that isn't diving off the cliff as far to the left as possible and my vote could be had. Unfortunately, I am not seeing many of those right now except for one that is very, very old.

I make no excuses for anything Trump says. They are often bad, ill informed or mean spirited, but that doesn't mean the guy is a white supremacist and even if he was that doesn't mean that the correct response is to fight hate with hate, but that is exactly what Joaquin Castro did in tweeting a list of local residents in San Antonio that had given to Trump in the past election with the clear message being that people go make trouble for these individuals.

So this is the correct way to handle that situation? By assigning someone as a hate monger and then attacking supporters of that person with your own hate? Even though 6 on his 'hit list' had also given to his own brother's 2020 election campaign.

No matter how much people dislike him, (I'm sure there are varying degrees all over the spectrum) Trump isn't a white supremacist and they need to give up that fight and narrative as it is now reaching laughable levels of insanity. So now he's raising the flags from the tragedy on 8-8 because that is supposed to mean Heil Hitler? Those words were actually spoken on MSNBC. It's seriously reached those levels of idiocy.

Also, Trump brought up universal background check and that is certainly something I would support.

[ 08-08-2019, 10:37 AM: Message edited by: PsychoSem ]

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Cory
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You have not shown anything that proves the idiots that attacked police/anything in regards to your Obama claim is true. You have not shown where his words incited them, justified them in doing anything. Same with your AOC claim. If there is no proof, then it is just your opinion this is why those things happened and opinions are not facts. The El Paso shooter being influenced by Trump's words? Him using those same words and rhetoric to justify killing brown people? Facts.

Of course he said one line about it not being about Trump and then how many were said that refutes that claim completely?

As for Baltimore... you don't see anything odd about him attacking a black Congressman who does not actually control anything that happens in a city but completely ignores two white ones that are attached to one state that currently holds 10 out of the top 25 worst states to live in list. Really? Nothing out of place there? That is just part of a "witch hunt"?

Come on now.

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Cory
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As for Castro, that is not true at all. That is what you are assuming, but hey, cite where he gave that clear message. Did you even listen/read to why he did it? Did you realize it is public knowledge that used to be printed in the media as recent as the 2016 elections?
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Crimson Mask from FL
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tRump has bragged about being a white nationalist. He babbles about his superior genetics. He absolutely is a white supremacist and you pretty much have to be one yourself to even be able to achieve denial of it.

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Dragonstone
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quote:
Originally posted by PsychoSem:
Who brought Sharpton back into the spotlight?

Obama.

Illinois State Senator Barack Obama told Al Sharpton to run for president in 2004?

News to me.
quote:
Originally posted by PsychoSem:
Who fanned racial tension by decrying systemic racism in police forces after a situation in which that wasn't exactly the case and it led to officers being killed and continues right up to this day with a lack of respect of the position (see the incident with the water bucket a few weeks ago).

Obama.

You can repeat that completely unsubstantiated accusation until you are blue in the face, but you still have yet to cite even one specific example of something Obama said or did to "fan racial tension".
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King Francis
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***************************************************
Also, Trump brought up universal background check and that is certainly something I would support.

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TRUMP BROUGHT THIS UP? TRUMP????

I think its been brought up long before (and bills waiting to be brought up to the Senate) the Cadet made 1 statement related to it. Now that the NRA and his supporters are pushing back.. what do you think he will say at the next rally? Think he's gonna bring up his bigly idea there and claim its his?

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When I said that was the most ignorant thing I ever heard, I didn't realize you were still talking.

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Cory
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He already made that statement and then quietly disregarded it. It is not the first time Trump has claimed this and done nothing. Hell, just yesterday he was "too busy" to take a phone call from Dayton's mayor but sure as hell took one from the head of the NRA.
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Crimson Mask from FL
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Maybe it's time you clucks realize we don't just kick your ass and leave you whining waah wash violent libs, we shoot back, too. You don't get to dictate the rules of engagement and then cry foul when the other guy plays by them too. It's unmanly.

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Dragonstone
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quote:
Originally posted by PsychoSem:
If you are going to label the President as white supremacist, ignore the multiple times he has spoken out against it

Multiple times? He read some canned speech from a teleprompter that he very obviously didn't actually believe.

You know who else recently claimed not to be a racist?

quote:
"Millions of White activists are NOT 'supremacists' We seek NOT to oppress or destroy any race!"
Guess who tweeted those exact words just yesterday?

David Duke, former Grand Wizard of the KKK voicing his support for white supremacist Tucker Carlson.

I guess since he says he's not a racist we should just take him at his word.
quote:
Originally posted by PsychoSem:
and continue to call anyone that supports him racist by association then you aren't going to be making many friends.

Why would I be upset about not being able to make friends with racists?

[ 08-08-2019, 11:42 AM: Message edited by: Dragonstone ]

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Travlr
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quote:
Originally posted by K. Fabian McClinch:
quote:
Originally posted by Crimson Mask from FL:
https://www.alternet.org/2019/08/conservative-writer-george-will-says-trumps-incitement-of-violence-shows-hes-weak-and-a-national-embarrassment/

I'm glad that Will (and others) are being rightly critical of T-Rump . . . but why don't more folks point out the bitter irony of these "face turns" from lifelong right-wing reactionaries who are now confronted by a "[p]Resident" who still shares most of their values 100% but is simply too gauche, vulgar, and "common" to be allowed into their literary cocktail parties?
Depends on how you define "reactionary" (a term I would never, ever, have used WRT Geroge Will, BTW), "conservative", "progressive", etc., etc.

There are quite a few on the Right side of the room that have no time for Trump, and have made much noise about it (Erickson, Douthat, et.al.). But they are also apparent voices in the wilderness now, instead of being the conservative versions of KOS or Krugman, they're now being ignored like once-well-regarded (within their circles) folx like David Frum or David Brooks. But because of their well-publicized anti-Trump leanings -- let's face it, they're all "Never Trumpers" -- the far right side of the room have declared them anethema and so the sheeple have learned to tune them out.

Beacuase the real reactionaries in US politics today -- Bolton, Cain, Bozell and their ilk -- are also something else: Authoritarians. Dissent is not to be tolerated.

But to Will, Frum, Brooks and the rest -- just like for Josh Marshall, Krugman, Leonhardt and others on the Left -- dissent is as necessary as air.

[ 08-08-2019, 12:20 PM: Message edited by: Travlr ]

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PsychoSem
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quote:
Originally posted by Dragonstone:
quote:
Originally posted by PsychoSem:
If you are going to label the President as white supremacist, ignore the multiple times he has spoken out against it

Multiple times? He read some canned speech from a teleprompter that he very obviously didn't actually believe.

You know who else recently claimed not to be a racist?

quote:
"Millions of White activists are NOT 'supremacists' We seek NOT to oppress or destroy any race!"
Guess who tweeted those exact words just yesterday?

David Duke, former Grand Wizard of the KKK voicing his support for white supremacist Tucker Carlson.

I guess since he says he's not a racist we should just take him at his word.
quote:
Originally posted by PsychoSem:
and continue to call anyone that supports him racist by association then you aren't going to be making many friends.

Why would I be upset about not being able to make friends with racists?

What has he done for that particular movement that is anywhere on the same planet as what Duke did?

The problem is equating anyone that supports him or anyone conservative or Republican as racist by association. The entire party is not made up of supremacists and if a small percentage might actually support Trump for that reason then I can assure you that there are many, many more than do so for other reasons like the economy, conservatism, etc.

It's quite a reach to make those claims on an entire group of people don't you think?

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Crimson Mask from FL
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Talk is cheap. Behavior is the truth. Wake the **** up.

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Crimson Mask from FL
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If you enable racists what the **** difference does it make if you claim not to be one. One more time. Talk is cheap. Behavior is the truth. It's like the alleged 'good cops' who still protect the bad cops. It's meaningless. Walk the walk or don't talk the talk. You're not fooling anybody who knows anything.

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JJ Bklyn42
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Originally posted by PsychoSem:
quote:
Who brought Sharpton back into the spotlight?

Obama.


Huh?
 -
quote:
U.S. President George W. Bush shakes hands with Rev. Al Sharpton before taking part in a roundtable discussion during his visit to General Philip Kearny School in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, January 8, 2009.
Hint: Al Sharpton never left the spotlight. Like Donald Trump.

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"When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time." - Maya Angelou

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PsychoSem
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quote:
Originally posted by JJ Bklyn42:
Originally posted by PsychoSem:
quote:
Who brought Sharpton back into the spotlight?

Obama.


Huh?
 -
quote:
U.S. President George W. Bush shakes hands with Rev. Al Sharpton before taking part in a roundtable discussion during his visit to General Philip Kearny School in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, January 8, 2009.
Hint: Al Sharpton never left the spotlight. Like Donald Trump.

Sharpton is an attention hound. He shows up every time something happens. He's never desired to be away from it, but there was a good period of time where he basically had one foot out the door as far as having any sort of clout. There were times he closely advised Obama at Obama's request. That's a big difference than a photo op with 'dubya'.

[ 08-08-2019, 09:47 PM: Message edited by: PsychoSem ]

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PsychoSem
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quote:
Originally posted by Crimson Mask from FL:
If you enable racists what the **** difference does it make if you claim not to be one. One more time. Talk is cheap. Behavior is the truth. It's like the alleged 'good cops' who still protect the bad cops. It's meaningless. Walk the walk or don't talk the talk. You're not fooling anybody who knows anything.

Forgive me. Is talk cheap or is talk what caused this guy to go on a killing spree? It seems to be 'everything' on one side of the coin and 'nothing' on the other. That's quite a trick.

[ 08-08-2019, 09:54 PM: Message edited by: PsychoSem ]

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JJ Bklyn42
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quote:
Originally posted by PsychoSem:
Sharpton is an attention hound. He shows up every time something happens. He's never desired to be away from it, but there was a good period of time where he basically had one foot out the door as far as having any sort of clout. There were times he closely advised Obama at Obama's request. That's a big difference than a photo op with 'dubya'.

Lemme guess. You aren't in touch with the black community very much, are you? (Then again, you don't appear to be in touch with any sort of reality.)

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Crimson Mask from FL
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quote:
Originally posted by PsychoSem:
quote:
Originally posted by Crimson Mask from FL:
If you enable racists what the **** difference does it make if you claim not to be one. One more time. Talk is cheap. Behavior is the truth. It's like the alleged 'good cops' who still protect the bad cops. It's meaningless. Walk the walk or don't talk the talk. You're not fooling anybody who knows anything.

Forgive me. Is talk cheap or is talk what caused this guy to go on a killing spree? It seems to be 'everything' on one side of the coin and 'nothing' on the other. That's quite a trick.
You ought to know. You're the one pulling it. You try and dress it up with false equivalency pretzel logic, but it's still the same s***. And 'forgive me' (who was it that implanted every single one of you with passive aggressive syndrome? Mengele?) But did you miss the point through stupidity or just because of your agenda?

[ 08-09-2019, 04:24 AM: Message edited by: Crimson Mask from FL ]

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diamondmd
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K. Fabian McClinch
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quote:
Originally posted by Crimson Mask from FL:


Maybe it's time you clucks realize we don't just kick your ass and leave you whining waah wash violent libs, we shoot back, too. You don't get to dictate the rules of engagement and then cry foul when the other guy plays by them too. It's unmanly.

This

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PsychoSem
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quote:
Originally posted by JJ Bklyn42:
quote:
Originally posted by PsychoSem:
Sharpton is an attention hound. He shows up every time something happens. He's never desired to be away from it, but there was a good period of time where he basically had one foot out the door as far as having any sort of clout. There were times he closely advised Obama at Obama's request. That's a big difference than a photo op with 'dubya'.

Lemme guess. You aren't in touch with the black community very much, are you? (Then again, you don't appear to be in touch with any sort of reality.)
The guy is self serving. If you think he's doing it for communities of any color you are dead wrong.

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PsychoSem
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quote:
Originally posted by Crimson Mask from FL:
quote:
Originally posted by PsychoSem:
quote:
Originally posted by Crimson Mask from FL:
If you enable racists what the **** difference does it make if you claim not to be one. One more time. Talk is cheap. Behavior is the truth. It's like the alleged 'good cops' who still protect the bad cops. It's meaningless. Walk the walk or don't talk the talk. You're not fooling anybody who knows anything.

Forgive me. Is talk cheap or is talk what caused this guy to go on a killing spree? It seems to be 'everything' on one side of the coin and 'nothing' on the other. That's quite a trick.
You ought to know. You're the one pulling it. You try and dress it up with false equivalency pretzel logic, but it's still the same s***. And 'forgive me' (who was it that implanted every single one of you with passive aggressive syndrome? Mengele?) But did you miss the point through stupidity or just because of your agenda?
Your attack of me personally has intensified. Did I touch a nerve? I have no agenda for either party but when comments made by you and others go so far out of bounds then I simply feel the need to offer a different, maybe even sane, point of view. You guys have haven't just jumped over the cliff. You've been falling so long that you think you are floating.

Your only offense seems to be to attack me, accuse me of 'pretzel logic' or 'moving goal posts' and then rinse and repeat.

The one thing you did do in this instance was actually admit the leaps that you make in order to place blame on someone you don't like based solely on political reasons.

That's pretty rare to ever see that happen. Most on the far left are oblivious to it or simply don't notice because they believe all of their own BS.

[ 08-09-2019, 06:59 PM: Message edited by: PsychoSem ]

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