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Author Topic: Abortion
Claymation Quartermain
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What is your opinion on abortion in the case of rape or incest?

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Dirko
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I believe in a woman's right to choose, so let them make their own decision.

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Crimson Mask from FL
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I'm against it. I think the fetus should be surgically removed and implanted in the rapist (or should that not be possible in a anti-choice male politician) who would be legally responsible for carrying it to term and then would have full custody and financial responsibility for the child.

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King Francis
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aint my body.... I have no input to her decision

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When I said that was the most ignorant thing I ever heard, I didn't realize you were still talking.

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Blue Thunder
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I'm pro life, but this is a tough one. There's good arguments on both sides.

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King Francis
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my pro-abortion stance was tested when an ex had one that I would have preferred she didnt. Until the father has a say (and that isnt right), nobody else has any say as to what a women does regarding abortion.

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When I said that was the most ignorant thing I ever heard, I didn't realize you were still talking.

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Blue Thunder
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quote:
Originally posted by King Francis:
my pro-abortion stance was tested when an ex had one that I would have preferred she didnt. Until the father has a say (and that isnt right), nobody else has any say as to what a women does regarding abortion.

Did you ever forgive her for murdering your kid?

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King Francis
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quote:
Originally posted by Blue Thunder:
quote:
Originally posted by King Francis:
my pro-abortion stance was tested when an ex had one that I would have preferred she didnt. Until the father has a say (and that isnt right), nobody else has any say as to what a women does regarding abortion.

Did you ever forgive her for murdering your kid?
B.T., thats an ignorant way to phrase it (I know it meets the agenda), but to answer...

I had no issue with her decision to control her body.. The biggest test of any belief is when it affects your own life instead of others..

We remain friends on facebook, tho I havent seen her in 15 years. we dont discuss what occurred, but talk of what occurring in our lives.

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When I said that was the most ignorant thing I ever heard, I didn't realize you were still talking.

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Blue Thunder
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quote:
Originally posted by King Francis:
quote:
Originally posted by Blue Thunder:
quote:
Originally posted by King Francis:
my pro-abortion stance was tested when an ex had one that I would have preferred she didnt. Until the father has a say (and that isnt right), nobody else has any say as to what a women does regarding abortion.

Did you ever forgive her for murdering your kid?
B.T., thats an ignorant way to phrase it (I know it meets the agenda), but to answer...

I had no issue with her decision to control her body.. The biggest test of any belief is when it affects your own life instead of others..

We remain friends on facebook, tho I havent seen her in 15 years. we dont discuss what occurred, but talk of what occurring in our lives.

You do realize that if I was driving drunk and T-Boned your ex while she was pregnant and killed her, I'd be charged with double homicide, right.

I feel that the "it's a woman's body" argument ends when there's a living being created. Yeah, it's a women's body, and she can cut her nails, cut her hair, get a tattoo, get a nose ring, etc

Well, I'm glad she's doing well and didn't have to be burdened with some pesky kid. Yuck.

[ 05-15-2018, 10:31 AM: Message edited by: Blue Thunder ]

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Robot Monster
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Very, very few people, no matter how often they describe it in terms of "killing" and "murder," actually believe that abortion is murder.

If someone refers to abortion as murder, I'd ask if the woman who has had multiple abortions should face the same legal penalties as someone who engaged in a mass shooting. They might conceive of the two cases as equal in a supernatural soteriological sense, and I can somewhat grasp that (it's not my position, btw), but in terms of ethical and legal questions? Do people really believe in the electric chair or life in prison for women who have abortions?

[edit: yes, I get that some people believe this. My point is that if more people who used this language actually believed it, we'd see a lot more clinic shootings/bombings than we already have]

Historically speaking, Christian views on abortion are interesting. It's not as timelessly consistent as the 20th century would have us think, but what is? In Muslim contexts, I've seen anti-abortion people concede that according to the Qur'an, the fetus doesn't immediately have a soul, so there's more room for abortion earlier in the pregnancy.

[ 05-15-2018, 12:19 PM: Message edited by: Robot Monster ]

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King Francis
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gonna have to troll someone else today..

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When I said that was the most ignorant thing I ever heard, I didn't realize you were still talking.

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merc
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OP’s question answer is I’m letting the women decide. Same for all abortions, although a bumper sticker I saw years ago resonated.

“Who will speak for the unborn?”

Catholic guilt at its best. Selfishly, I’m grateful I’ve never had to be on either side of the decision.

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sam the lion from WA
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quote:
Originally posted by Blue Thunder:
quote:
Originally posted by King Francis:
quote:
Originally posted by Blue Thunder:
quote:
Originally posted by King Francis:
my pro-abortion stance was tested when an ex had one that I would have preferred she didnt. Until the father has a say (and that isnt right), nobody else has any say as to what a women does regarding abortion.

Did you ever forgive her for murdering your kid?
B.T., thats an ignorant way to phrase it (I know it meets the agenda), but to answer...

I had no issue with her decision to control her body.. The biggest test of any belief is when it affects your own life instead of others..

We remain friends on facebook, tho I havent seen her in 15 years. we dont discuss what occurred, but talk of what occurring in our lives.

You do realize that if I was driving drunk and T-Boned your ex while she was pregnant and killed her, I'd be charged with double homicide, right.

I feel that the "it's a woman's body" argument ends when there's a living being created. Yeah, it's a women's body, and she can cut her nails, cut her hair, get a tattoo, get a nose ring, etc

Well, I'm glad she's doing well and didn't have to be burdened with some pesky kid. Yuck.

Blue, this is a real question, do you know how many weeks the most premature child who was able to survive?

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Blue Thunder
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quote:
Originally posted by sam the lion from WA:
quote:
Originally posted by Blue Thunder:
quote:
Originally posted by King Francis:
quote:
Originally posted by Blue Thunder:
quote:
Originally posted by King Francis:
my pro-abortion stance was tested when an ex had one that I would have preferred she didnt. Until the father has a say (and that isnt right), nobody else has any say as to what a women does regarding abortion.

Did you ever forgive her for murdering your kid?
B.T., thats an ignorant way to phrase it (I know it meets the agenda), but to answer...

I had no issue with her decision to control her body.. The biggest test of any belief is when it affects your own life instead of others..

We remain friends on facebook, tho I havent seen her in 15 years. we dont discuss what occurred, but talk of what occurring in our lives.

You do realize that if I was driving drunk and T-Boned your ex while she was pregnant and killed her, I'd be charged with double homicide, right.

I feel that the "it's a woman's body" argument ends when there's a living being created. Yeah, it's a women's body, and she can cut her nails, cut her hair, get a tattoo, get a nose ring, etc

Well, I'm glad she's doing well and didn't have to be burdened with some pesky kid. Yuck.

Blue, this is a real question, do you know how many weeks the most premature child who was able to survive?
That doesn't matter because I believe life starts at conception and not birth.

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sam the lion from WA
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quote:
Originally posted by Blue Thunder:
quote:
Originally posted by sam the lion from WA:
quote:
Originally posted by Blue Thunder:
quote:
Originally posted by King Francis:
quote:
Originally posted by Blue Thunder:
quote:
Originally posted by King Francis:
my pro-abortion stance was tested when an ex had one that I would have preferred she didnt. Until the father has a say (and that isnt right), nobody else has any say as to what a women does regarding abortion.

Did you ever forgive her for murdering your kid?
B.T., thats an ignorant way to phrase it (I know it meets the agenda), but to answer...

I had no issue with her decision to control her body.. The biggest test of any belief is when it affects your own life instead of others..

We remain friends on facebook, tho I havent seen her in 15 years. we dont discuss what occurred, but talk of what occurring in our lives.

You do realize that if I was driving drunk and T-Boned your ex while she was pregnant and killed her, I'd be charged with double homicide, right.

I feel that the "it's a woman's body" argument ends when there's a living being created. Yeah, it's a women's body, and she can cut her nails, cut her hair, get a tattoo, get a nose ring, etc

Well, I'm glad she's doing well and didn't have to be burdened with some pesky kid. Yuck.

Blue, this is a real question, do you know how many weeks the most premature child who was able to survive?
That doesn't matter because I believe life starts at conception and not birth.
So the morning after pill is murder if there was conception?

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The magic, that is on those tapes, you don't own THAT!!

Reid Rothchild

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Crimson Mask from FL
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I see that as usual the goalposts have been moved. Try to focus. Rape. Incest. Remember? Your daddy f*cks your sister. Some street monster with unacceptable melanin f*cks your mother. That was the question. Answer it.

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bcthomas
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quote:
Originally posted by Crimson Mask from FL:
I see that as usual the goalposts have been moved. Try to focus. Rape. Incest. Remember? Your daddy f*cks your sister. Some street monster with unacceptable melanin f*cks your mother. That was the question. Answer it.

To be fair, the question is framed as a goalpost move in the first place.

Do you support abortion from rape or incest? All relevant abortion statistics show those cases at around 1% (or less) of all abortions. Seems strange to boil a divisive issue down to such a small percentage of its actual execution.

On to the original question ... I'm pro-choice (at the state level, not a fan of Roe) so I'm perfectly fine with abortion in the case of rape and incest. I'm also fine with it as it's used in other cases, in very, very small percentages due to possible health risks and in very, very small percentages due to conditions of the unborn. Mostly though, it's ex post facto birth control. And that's fine.

Most women who have abortions (72%-75%) are already mothers. Too often abortion is thought of as birth control for young single girls not ready for kids. That's simply not the case.

Regardless, abortion is a really divisive issue. Although I fall on the pro-choice side, if one argues from a religious pro-life stance, I can entertain the argument.

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Robot Monster
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I get that I wasn't the one moving the goal posts, but just to be clear, I didn't address the rape/incest factor because it changes nothing for me, as I'm already pro-choice.

[ 05-15-2018, 07:25 PM: Message edited by: Robot Monster ]

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Blue Thunder
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quote:
Originally posted by Crimson Mask from FL:
I see that as usual the goalposts have been moved. Try to focus. Rape. Incest. Remember? Your daddy f*cks your sister. Some street monster with unacceptable melanin f*cks your mother. That was the question. Answer it.

I did, but Francis brought up abortion and normal circumstances.

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Crimson Mask from FL
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quote:
Originally posted by bcthomas:
quote:
Originally posted by Crimson Mask from FL:
I see that as usual the goalposts have been moved. Try to focus. Rape. Incest. Remember? Your daddy f*cks your sister. Some street monster with unacceptable melanin f*cks your mother. That was the question. Answer it.

To be fair, the question is framed as a goalpost move in the first place.
No. That's not how this works. The OP sets the topic.
quote:
Do you support abortion from rape or incest? All relevant abortion statistics show those cases at around 1% (or less) of all abortions. Seems strange to boil a divisive issue down to such a small percentage of its actual execution.
First of all, that's %s of abortions, not % of pregnancies. So that's some fraction of American lives affected by 'these cases'. Even then, that adds up to allegedly +-32,000 a year. I'm sure these human beings would be very comforted by your dismissal of the issue because of the importance of their numbers as a 'goalpost move'.

That's also about nine zillion % more than Americans affected by terrorism (even the far more common white Christian terrorism), so I guess we should dismiss discussing that too.

I mean, 'to be fair', and all.

Amazing.

[ 05-16-2018, 04:16 AM: Message edited by: Crimson Mask from FL ]

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bcthomas
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quote:
Originally posted by Crimson Mask from FL:
quote:
Originally posted by bcthomas:
quote:
Originally posted by Crimson Mask from FL:
I see that as usual the goalposts have been moved. Try to focus. Rape. Incest. Remember? Your daddy f*cks your sister. Some street monster with unacceptable melanin f*cks your mother. That was the question. Answer it.

To be fair, the question is framed as a goalpost move in the first place.
No. That's not how this works. The OP sets the topic.
quote:
Do you support abortion from rape or incest? All relevant abortion statistics show those cases at around 1% (or less) of all abortions. Seems strange to boil a divisive issue down to such a small percentage of its actual execution.
First of all, that's %s of abortions, not % of pregnancies. So that's some fraction of American lives affected by 'these cases'. Even then, that adds up to allegedly +-32,000 a year. I'm sure these human beings would be very comforted by your dismissal of the issue because of the importance of their numbers as a 'goalpost move'.

That's also about nine zillion % more than Americans affected by terrorism (even the far more common white Christian terrorism), so I guess we should dismiss discussing that too.

I mean, 'to be fair', and all.

Amazing.

Yes. That's the percentage of abortions. Which is exactly the question posed.

And isn't that how we talk about every issue in the world? Stats, facts, numbers? Don't we boil issues down to numbers to look at overall impact?

A few years back a dude got killed by an exploding condom vending machine. I'm sure to his family that was terrible. As a statistic, it's nothing.

And thanks for explaining how message boards work.

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Crimson Mask from FL
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You're welcome. You needed it.

Now go follow the Yellow Brick Road to the Emerald City and ask the Wizard for a heart.

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bcthomas
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quote:
Originally posted by Crimson Mask from FL:
You're welcome. You needed it.

Now go follow the Yellow Brick Road to the Emerald City and ask the Wizard for a heart.

I don't lack empathy for those facing this trial. It has to be absolutely torturous.

I am saying the specific scenario is statistically (and probably morally) insignificant to the abortion discussion as a whole.

An individual dealing with this type of tragedy isn't just a statistic. But we have to use statistics to take big picture looks at weighty topics.

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Crimson Mask from FL
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Well then I guess we can't discuss American Muslims either, since they're less than 1% of the population.

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bcthomas
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quote:
Originally posted by Crimson Mask from FL:
Well then I guess we can't discuss American Muslims either, since they're less than 1% of the population.

If the topic was "What should we do about the obesity problem in American Muslim communities?", I'd reply that American obesity is a much larger (haha) issue than just in a community that makes up 1% of the US.

If every obese Muslim in America got fit, it would still have little, if any, impact on the obesity numbers of the country. It's statistically insignificant.

That doesn't mean those specific people won't have better lives, it just means it's not really moving the needle.

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Crimson Mask from FL
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News flash: this is not some made-up bullsh*t like you just came up with. It's already in the conversation. You got fundamentalist jackoffs out there and the politicians who pander to them trying to pass legislation to criminalize abortion in all cases. 'Seems strange' that you would want to censor this from a discussion on a message board. #RapeKulturAmerika

[ 05-17-2018, 05:45 AM: Message edited by: Crimson Mask from FL ]

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Crimson Mask from FL
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Also if rape and incest:abortion = obesity:American Muslims to you in terms of causation &/or correlation even if the latter did actually, ya know, exist as a concern, you need to get your brain rewired.

[ 05-17-2018, 04:23 AM: Message edited by: Crimson Mask from FL ]

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chgowolvs44
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This guy has shown some lack of capacity for cogent logic over his last few contributions.

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"A spokesman for the NYPD said the police were exercising their right to defend themselves from charging protesters who...were armed with dangerous ideas" Keith Olbermann RE:NYPD over reaction to OWS protests

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Crimson Mask from FL
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Get woke. The OP didn't pull this out of his ass.

http://goprapeadvisorychart.com/

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Crimson Mask from FL
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 -

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Crimson Mask from FL
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Really needs to be updated to 'QUITTING' for Ryan ('taking his money and going home').

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Crimson Mask from FL
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'seems strange' to discuss on a political forum on a message board, huh.

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Blue Thunder
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quote:
Originally posted by Crimson Mask from FL:
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And the GOP paid dearly with those goofballs from MO and IN. These are red states that shouldn't have lost the Senate race. I'm keeping tabs on Indiana and the GOP nominee isn't touching abortion. Not sure about MO

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Crimson Mask from FL
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Plenty of them who AREN'T out of office too. No-selling this as a relevant political topic is beyond asinine.

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bcthomas
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quote:
Originally posted by Crimson Mask from FL:
News flash: this is not some made-up bullsh*t like you just came up with. It's already in the conversation. You got fundamentalist jackoffs out there and the politicians who pander to them trying to pass legislation to criminalize abortion in all cases. 'Seems strange' that you would want to censor this from a discussion on a message board. #RapeKulturAmerika

I don't want to censor anything. I don't like the question. I presented a reason why.

The whole debate around 'rape and incest' is a BS way to 'find common ground' with those that oppose a woman's right to choose. It gets everyone to agree that in this specific case of rape or incest, abortion is okay. But it's different with those other wh*res who just chose to have an abortion.

I get the idea of trying to find something, anything, to get the right to give some ground on the issue. I just don't like this track. It directly stigmatizes women who've chosen abortion outside of the 'rape and incest' parameters.

On top of that, it's the same 'law and order' demagoguery that I hate from the right. "What if your daughter became pregnant from rape?" That's the kind of question I expect from Ted Cruz.

I don't care if it's rape. I don't care if it's a one-night-stand. I don't care if it's from married, consensual sex. If a woman becomes pregnant, and chooses not to keep the child, I support her decision. That's a brutal, gut-wrenching decision that I'll never have the terrible displeasure of making.

And that whole list of idiots blabbering on about stripping away women's rights, they got what they deserve. Let's hope more do, as well.

CM, I don't think we really diverge on the actual issue of abortion. I do think we diverge on the importance of the 'rape and incest' portion of it. To me, abortion due to rape and incest is folded right into any woman's right to choose, regardless of reason. I fear that focusing too much on the 'rape and incest' cases of abortion does a disservice to women's reproductive rights as a whole.

[ 05-17-2018, 09:04 PM: Message edited by: bcthomas ]

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Crimson Mask from FL
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I sort of see your point, but you're ass backwards (which makes no sense, ass BELONGS backwards but I digress) on this specific thing. It's not something the 'left' manufactures to 'find something'. It's something the 'right' puts out there all by itself that needs to be confronted.

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bcthomas
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quote:
Originally posted by Crimson Mask from FL:
I sort of see your point, but you're ass backwards (which makes no sense, ass BELONGS backwards but I digress) on this specific thing. It's not something the 'left' manufactures to 'find something'. It's something the 'right' puts out there all by itself that needs to be confronted.

I get that those guys are the problem. 100%.

None of those guys are coming right out and saying those ridiculous things without provocation. The quotes are from interviews or stump speeches, and they are responding to either a question or standing on their (lack of?) morals.

But the 'rape and incest' question is almost always the first follow-up question during open dialogue.

A: "Pro-life or pro-choice?"

B: "Pro-life."

A: "But what about ... "

And the conversation goes from there. It's the follow-up that leads down the path of darkness. It's the same in terms of the 'enhanced interrogation' debate.

A: "For or against 'enhanced interrogation?"

B: "Against."

A: "But what if there was going to be a terrorist attack and we could stop it by waterboarding this guy?" (totally plausible)

Constant nibbling around the edges is how the whole pie gets eaten.

On a side note, I can at least respect the position of completely pro-life. I don't agree with it, but if you make a principled stand and say all life, even conceived through rape, is precious and should be protected, I can grant you the charity that your argument comes authentically.

If some guy says he's pro-life, but will make exemptions for reasons X, Y, and Z, he's not really pro-life, and I'm not sure he truly stands by his position that all lives are precious. Because my follow-up to him is, "What makes a baby conceived by rape more worthy of being killed than one conceived in a consensual one-night stand?"

To which the answer would be ... crickets.

Anyway, like I said, I figured we'd be way more in agreement here than it seemed.

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bcthomas
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quote:
Originally posted by chgowolvs44:
This guy has shown some lack of capacity for cogent logic over his last few contributions.

Please expand. Which few posts lacked cogent thought? What made them lack cogent thought? What specific phrases were so out there that they fell short of even chimpanzee level reasoning?

If my contributions are so ill-equipped to hold up to the standards of a pro-wrestling message board I've really got to spend some time straightening out the man in the mirror.

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