WrestlingClassics.com Message Board Post New Topic  New Poll  Post A Reply
my profile | directory login | register | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» WrestlingClassics.com Message Board » Jack Brisco forum » Jack Brisco v. Judo Gene LeBell?

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!    
Author Topic: Jack Brisco v. Judo Gene LeBell?
Skorzeny
Member
Member # 4615

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Skorzeny     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Jack Brisco v. Judo Gene LeBell? Who would win? Did Jack ever get a chance to get on the mat with Gene and what is his opinion of Gene?
IP: Logged
Jack Brisco
Administrator
Member # 1944

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Jack Brisco   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Gene's career was over by the time I got started,so I never saw his work. Gene is a nice man but I don't believe that a judo guy can beat a wrestler.
IP: Logged
Skorzeny
Member
Member # 4615

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Skorzeny     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
What about Yoshida the Japanese Olympic Judo Gold medalist who has proven his art in legit shoots in Pride against wrestlers and other martial artist? Also guys like Antonio Rodrigo Nogiera the Pride interim Heavyweight champ and Fedor Emilianenko the Pride Heavyweight Champ who have went through several great amateur wrestlers like Mark Coleman and Kevin Randleman and Mark Kerr who were national champions and made them submit? I know they are Jujitsu practitioners and not judo but seems they have taken on some of the best free style wrestlers and proved their technique is at least on par with if not better than the American Catch as Catch Can wrestlers. It seems the lack of submission skills hurt the wrestlers. Also the wrestlers are great at taking opponents down but have been trained for years to get the opponent on their backs. That is an offensive position for a Jujitsu practitioner. And then the learned patience of having the guard and the submission or hooking skills kick in and ultimately win out. Now I am not saying that one is better than the other but in the end evenly matched opponents, one jujitsu and one amateur free style wrestling ultimately comes down to who knows and can execute submissions and who has the best technique. These examples are also of proven legit shoots between evenly matched opponents.
IP: Logged
Skorzeny
Member
Member # 4615

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Skorzeny     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
P.s. I am thankful that we do have mixed martial arts today that can have athletes from different styles and arts go head to head in legit contests. It allows us to put to bed speculation, legend and hearsay. Any practitioner of Karate, Jujitsu, Judo, wrestling or whatever need only to put up or shut up and get in the ring and prove his skills. Ultimately, to me, it is not a certain style that will always win out. You have to consider the athlete and the individual performing that style. A garden variety Judo or Jujitsu practitioner is not always going to beat a wrestler and vice versa but if you put a Nogiera in with a garden variety wrestler he will more than likely win out. And it seems if you put him in against multi national champion caliber wrestlers he will submit them. So I would say his grappling ability and submissions rank as the best in the world ( you could dispute Fedor Emilianenko because he beat Nogeria but they haven't had a rematch. He also recently submitted multi national champion Mark Coleman in just a few minutes).
It is a shame that guys like Karl Gotch, Verne Gagne, Lou Thesz, Stecher, Lewis, yourself, Billy Robinson and others couldn't have the forum that todays mixed martial artist do to test their talents in legit contest against the best in the world. It would be interesting.

IP: Logged
Boston Bob
Member
Member # 4927

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Boston Bob         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Skorzeny: You made excellent points about jiu-jitsu experts versus wrestlers.Taking a jiu-jitsu fighter onto his back would cause problems for a wrestler who is not a submission expert. Collegiate and Olympic wrestling are sports but jiu-jitsu is deadly!
Perhaps Mr. Brisco will elaborate on his statement that a wrestler would beat a judo man.

IP: Logged
Steve Yohe
Member
Member # 302

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Steve Yohe     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I think Gene considered himself a wrestler, not a judo performer. He's studied everything. He grew up at The Olympic & his loyalitys are with wrestling. He's worked out with people like Ed Lewis, Thesz, & Karl Gotch.---Yohe
IP: Logged
Mark Nulty from WA
Administrator
Member # 1

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Mark Nulty from WA   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Wasn't there a story floating around that LeBell was working as a consultant on the set of a Steven Segall movie? The story goes that there was some type of an altercation that ended with LeBell chocking out Segall.
IP: Logged
Crimson Mask I
unregistered


Icon 1 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Entirely true as far as I can find out. There are a couple three different versions of what led up to it, but there seems to be a clear indication that it happened.

I'm not real sure I agree that Gene would identify himself primarily as a wrestler, though. He has written published books on Judo technique (yeah, some, or one, on wrestling too but many more on Judo) and still teaches it.

So long from the Sunshine State!

[ 11-01-2004, 01:55 PM: Message edited by: Crimson Mask I ]

IP: Logged
SWW72 from FL
Member
Member # 1536

Icon 1 posted      Profile for SWW72 from FL     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I think alot of who would win depends upon the rules of the contest. Sure, a judo/ju-jitsu person is strong on his back and can submit his opponent from that position, but if the match takes falls into consideration as well as submissions, then the judo/ju-jitsu athlete would have a very difficult time.

--------------------
SWW72

IP: Logged
Dick the Loser
Member
Member # 5076

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Dick the Loser     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Certainly if you took "falls" into consideration I would say a wrestler would beat a Judo or Jujisu practitioner but how can you say that about submissions? Jujitsu is primarily all about submissions.

The only other thing I wanted to ad was something that Frankie Caine brought up. Why don't wrestlers in MMA try go behinds on their opponents?

quote:
Originally posted by SWW72:
I think alot of who would win depends upon the rules of the contest. Sure, a judo/ju-jitsu person is strong on his back and can submit his opponent from that position, but if the match takes falls into consideration as well as submissions, then the judo/ju-jitsu athlete would have a very difficult time.


IP: Logged
Matt Farmer from WA
Member
Member # 1177

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Matt Farmer from WA     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I see attempts by wrestlers to go behind their opponents all the time. To compare today's MMA with that of even 10 years ago is unfair. Cross-training is so in vogue now, rarley will we see an MMA contest were it is style versus style. I believe in todays MMA world it ends up who has the best technique, training or ability.

Gene LeBell is a wrestler, and a Judokan. He is loyal to both. The story about the situation with Steven Segal is true from what I heard. Pepper Martin who spent many years in this business, has worked in Hollywood for years and has backed up the story. Even saying that many of the onlookers were happy to see Segal go down.

--------------------
follow me on twitter at: @mattfarmer93
www.defywrestling.com
http://mlwradio.com/

IP: Logged
SWW72 from FL
Member
Member # 1536

Icon 1 posted      Profile for SWW72 from FL     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Dick the Loser:
Certainly if you took "falls" into consideration I would say a wrestler would beat a Judo or Jujisu practitioner but how can you say that about submissions? Jujitsu is primarily all about submissions.

The only other thing I wanted to ad was something that Frankie Caine brought up. Why don't wrestlers in MMA try go behinds on their opponents?

quote:
Originally posted by SWW72:
I think alot of who would win depends upon the rules of the contest. Sure, a judo/ju-jitsu person is strong on his back and can submit his opponent from that position, but if the match takes falls into consideration as well as submissions, then the judo/ju-jitsu athlete would have a very difficult time.


What I meant to say is that the Judo/ju-jitsu athlete might often cause himself to be pinned while attempting his submission if both were ways to win the contest. Not being able to work from his back from fear of being pinned would pose a serious problem to the judo/ju-jitsu practitioner.

--------------------
SWW72

IP: Logged
BVRF05: Eddie Gilbert Fan
Member
Member # 5853

Icon 1 posted      Profile for BVRF05: Eddie Gilbert Fan     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
-I met Mr Lebell back in July at IWIM in Newton when he received the Frank Gotch award

-He is a true class act

-Did anyone else attend the H.O.F. inductions in Newton?

-I did and had a blast

-Met Jack's brother Jerry and spoke with him briefly

-Met my idol Baron Von Raschke

-Met Bob Geigel, Danny Hodge,Tom Drake, Brad Rheingans, Harley Race, Percival A. Friend, Charlie Thesz-Lou's widow

-It was an awesome weekend and fun had by all!

-Hey Jack when are you gonna come back and visit us in Iowa at the IWIM in Newton?

--------------------
Ignorance, allied with power, is the most ferocious enemy justice can have ~ James Baldwin

I will never apologize for who I am! Do you really think I care what you think about me? You obviously don't know me.

IP: Logged
brutebernard65
Member
Member # 5776

Icon 1 posted      Profile for brutebernard65     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Skorzeny:
Jack Brisco v. Judo Gene LeBell? Who would win? Did Jack ever get a chance to get on the mat with Gene and what is his opinion of Gene?

You are basically asking a question that can only be answered with speculation, which is fun to debate but its a who knows kind of thing. I don't know enough about Briscos fighting ability. Can he strike or does he have any experience striking or in submissions for that matter. On the other hand LeBell is famous and was a world class Judo practitioner and is a master at jujitsu and submission wrestling. Again I don't know much about his striking. Also I am not sure about the age difference but I think Gene is older. When it comes down to it I would always go with the guy that is more cross trained in MMA. That would be Lebell. But anybody can be had on any given day and it depends on what kind of contest it is. Brisco from what I hear from people who knew was like wrestling a ghost or a shadow and had a tremendous finesse style and tremedous speed and technique. He might be able to control Lebell and ride him all over the mat but amateurs without MMA experience tend to find that their moves and techniques play right into alot of submissions. Again, who knows, its a "my dad could whip your dad" or "who was better Babe Ruth or Johnny Unitas".

--------------------
R.I.P Brute Bernard and Skull Murphy

IP: Logged
THE CLAW HOLD
Member
Member # 4740

Icon 1 posted      Profile for THE CLAW HOLD     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
LeBell still has to be one of the toughest men alive. The Segal story has been floating around for a number of years now. By all accounts, Seagal is a JERK and bit off more than he could chew with Mr. LeBell. There is another story that LeBell gave Bruce Lee some what for on the set of The Green Hornet. LeBell was in charge of stunts and fight scenes and he and Lee got into a debate about how one of the scenes would play out. One thing led to another and LaBell got Lee down and put him in a headlock.

I have a number of Gene LeBell's books and DVDs. A great man in my humble estimation

IP: Logged
HarryWhite3
Member
Member # 1997

Icon 1 posted      Profile for HarryWhite3     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Like Claw Hold mentioned, some of LeBell's books are good. Good book with a great title is "Diary Of A Sadistic ******* ".
IP: Logged
Marcos from OK
Member
Member # 5572

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Marcos from OK     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
From what I've read Gene was upset because Seagall was bullying one of the stunt men and so he choked Seagall out. Not sure why he didn't include it in the book.

The reason a judo guy would have a shot against a pure wrestler is because today's wrestlers (collegiate) don't know so many submissions. I've seen a wrestler from Oklahoma State get tapped by a non ranked jiu jitsu guy because he didn't know how to defend the armbar. Train a wrestler for a month though, and it's a different story.

IP: Logged
   

Quick Reply
Message:

HTML is enabled.
UBB Code™ is enabled.

Instant Graemlins
   


Post New Topic  New Poll  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | WrestlingClassics.com Home Page

Click here to see the WCMB Rules and Regulations

Powered by UBB.classic™ 6.7.3