WrestlingClassics.com Message Board Post New Topic  New Poll  Post A Reply
my profile | directory login | register | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» WrestlingClassics.com Message Board » Lou Thesz forum » Wrestlers who disliked Lou Thesz (Page 1)

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!   This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2   
Author Topic: Wrestlers who disliked Lou Thesz
Skullbutt
Member
Member # 21433

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Skullbutt         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I know that there were at least a few wrestlers such as Rocca and Rogers who Mr. Thesz commented unfavorably about on WCMB. There must have been wrestlers who did not like Thesz, for whatever reason. Have any written in a book or other place of their dislike for Lou Thesz, and did they give any reasons?
IP: Logged
Vulture
Member
Member # 10205

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Vulture     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Terry Funk in his book took some shots at him for guzzling guys who were draws just because Thesz allegedly didn't respect them for not having legit skills.

I think Fred Blassie said similar stuff in his book IIRC.

[ 06-09-2011, 06:12 AM: Message edited by: Vulture ]

IP: Logged
StranglerLou from Fla
Member
Member # 4478

Icon 1 posted      Profile for StranglerLou from Fla     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Quote: "I have great admiration for Lou, who held the title through most of the 50's, and for a few years before and after that decade. But he was a very self centered champion, one who didn't take into consideration the time and effort of some of his challengers and other guys on those cards had to put into making certain guys the top stars of the areas. If he didn't like someone or didn't think they should be in there, he'd chill them in the ring, which he was certainly capable of doing, because he had legitimate skills.
He wrestled Baron Michelle Leone in Ca. in 1952. Now Leone wasn't a legitimate wrestler, but by God he could draw some unbelievable houses. Lou ate him alive, and Leone was never the same again as an attraction.
He did the same thing to Bull Curry in Housten, and to my friend Ricky Romero in El Paso. That is one thing that I have never understood. He wasn't helping the territories that he visited, and that was the champions main job. To me, that meant that as great a wrestler as he was, Lou was not a great champion."

From Terry Funks book, Terry Funk, More than just hardcore.

IP: Logged
SkullKrusher12000
Member
Member # 4720

Icon 1 posted      Profile for SkullKrusher12000     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Yes, Lou usually gets a pass on this. We give Hogan a hard time for being in the business only for himself, but Lou was just as bad, if not worse in that way. Handpicked champions like Hogan (and not always the best choice for the business, just the person he felt most comfortable putting over, ala Hogan-Yoko-Hart).

But, Thesz was so good and so important that, as history moves on, we forgive him for these things. If there is anything to learn from that, it might be that the true icons of the business deserved to call many of their own shots. Or, it could be that many of the icons of are business are icons simply because they never put themselves in a position to be anything but...either way has its good and bad points.

IP: Logged
Big Burly
Member
Member # 23968

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Big Burly     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Having read Hooker several times, I know that Lou didn't like putting over anyone who didn't have legit wrestling skills. Lou was one of the last truly legitimate wrestlers, and he didn't like that his profession was being taken over by performers.

As far as the Baron Leone thing goes, Lou was going to make him look good, but Leone sandbagged, which pissed Lou off, so he slapped Leone around. Leone kinda killed his own heat. Lou said that come to find out, the promoters were stiffing Leone, so he gave a crappy performance. What he did with his bad performance was kill any shot at good gates for rematches.

I do see Funk's point of view, though. The territory wrestlers worked hard to get whomever over, and when whomever gets a shot at the champ, the champ plows him in straight falls. And that destroys all heat for whomever for awhile, if not forever.

IP: Logged
SkullKrusher12000
Member
Member # 4720

Icon 1 posted      Profile for SkullKrusher12000     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
It's really a myth that the business was being taken over by performers and Lou was one of the last holdouts. Really, there is probably a higher concentration of guys with legitimite backgrounds today than there was then (that is also b/c there are fewer full-time workers).

I think Lou knew he'd messed up with Leone and sort of backtracked a little as the years went by. And that doesn't excuse his absolute burial of Rogers over a very insignificant (and somewhat justified) comment about Ed Lewis getting a piece of the gate.

But it's not a knock on Lou. I only say this to point out the double-standard that gets applied here. I have the same problem with people who idolize George Tragos for multiple maimings and then curse someone like New Jack for the same behavior. It's either ok- or it's not.

On the other hand, I think stories of Lou not cooperating are also a bit stretched. Look at film with Lou against Rocca. Puts him over big time. So, there might be a few stories mixed in with genuine fear of Lou's ability which made for a reputation of not doing business. It may not be totally deserved.

On the whole, I think that many main-event wrestlers from that time were wary of Lou. Many didn't say it b/c it either wasn't PC, or they were scared (who could blame them). In the end, Lou should have been making better money and not working for Gulas or running opposition. He should have had a much better end to his career- he certainly deserved it. But, I think his unwillingness to do business cost him a lot of business. In fact, the NWA never had another champ like Lou- on purpose. While there were tough guys and guys with backgrounds, there wasn't anyone that they couldn't control if they didn't have to. Lou, more than anyone else, can be blamed for the slow decline of the world title (though I am sure his intent was the exact opposite).

But, I will be buying the new addition of "Hooker" this week- my first edition has just about fallen apart. Why? Because I still love what Lou Thesz represents!

[ 06-13-2011, 06:21 PM: Message edited by: SkullKrusher12000 ]

IP: Logged
BERT from NJ
Member
Member # 4090

Icon 1 posted      Profile for BERT from NJ     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Big Burly:
As far as the Baron Leone thing goes, Lou was going to make him look good, but Leone sandbagged, which pissed Lou off, so he slapped Leone around. Leone kinda killed his own heat. Lou said that come to find out, the promoters were stiffing Leone, so he gave a crappy performance. What he did with his bad performance was kill any shot at good gates for rematches.

In fairness though, that is only Lou's account or version of what happened. He'd done it before, and he'd done it after, who's to say Terry's account of Thesz eating Leone up because he wasn't "legit" in his eyes being how it went down? Thesz did show a disdain for or was dismissive of "performers" of certain ethnic background who also happened to rival or out do his drawing power. Leone fits right in with that group.

In 1957, Thesz hand picked Dick Hutton to drop the NWA title to. He pretty much was a bust in the role. Buddy Rogers or even Verne Gagne were obvious candidates that probably would have been better suited. Lou had issues with both.

--------------------
"Kneel before Zod"
General Zod

"You're a little out of order yourself-You insulted him a little bit, you insulted him A LITTLE BIT"
Jimmy the Gent Conway

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”
Edmund Burke

IP: Logged
The Outlaw J.D. McKay (better?,,,)
Member
Member # 166

Icon 1 posted      Profile for The Outlaw J.D. McKay (better?,,,)   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Great reading, guys...thanks.

j.d. out-

--------------------
"Marriage is the one normal thing that Flair tries to do, but he sucks at it" - Nickla Roberts, in a SLAM Wrestling article. I add, "He ain't alone."

https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1481967783&ref=tn_tnmn

IP: Logged
Steve Yohe
Member
Member # 302

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Steve Yohe     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
In pro wrestling, if you are #1 in anything, wrestler, promoter, even writer etc...people will hate you. Go's with the job.--Yohe
IP: Logged
MissingLenk
Member
Member # 2457

Icon 1 posted      Profile for MissingLenk     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by BERT from NJ:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Big Burly:
"Terry's account of Thesz eating Leone up because he wasn't "legit" in his eyes being how it went down?"

I did not know, I had though Leone was somewhat legit even though he was a showman.

--------------------
Your uncrowned NWA Western States Heritage Champion.

IP: Logged
Christian Däubler
Member
Member # 27270

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Christian Däubler   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
What problem did Thesz have with Gagne?

--------------------
http://www.wrestlingdata.com
The largest wrestling results database on the net

IP: Logged
Crimson Mask from FL
Administrator
Member # 10449

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Crimson Mask from FL     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
http://wrestlingclassics.com/.ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=10;t=001340

So long from the Sunshine State!

--------------------
Why does 'networking' feel so identical to 'kissing ass'?

IP: Logged
Richard Berger 1A
Member
Member # 2385

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Richard Berger 1A   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
 -

--------------------
"Jews communicate by mutually agreed interruption" - Simon Schama, author of 'The Story of the Jews'.

"Grammar: It's the rules what makes your mouth feel dumb" - Jon Stewart, The Daily Show, Oct. 24, 2013

IP: Logged
Steve Yohe
Member
Member # 302

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Steve Yohe     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I think Lou and Mil Mascaras were very similar. Both wrestled & had a style. If you were someone who couldn't take holds from them and do some wrestling. Or if you weren't a dedicated athlete, you were just going to have to take what they gave you.

A lot of guys just liked to play the crowd, then drive to the next card drinking and eating junk. Just take the easy way without serious training. Those types wouldn't like wrestling or being around Lou or Mil Mascaras...or Billy Robinson..or Karl Gotch or Danny Hodge..

I've heard stories about guys complaining about wrestling Thesz. "Man, he's going to rub my face into the dirty mat again" stuff. Then some major guy would say: "I'll take that match, I like the money."

I think a large number of minor talents hated the guys who took it to another level. Then again, I bet a large number of major talents valued having those guys in the sport.

People tried to get Lou to say something bad about Mil Mascaras on the site, but Thesz wouldn't do it. They were a lot alike & Mil could wrestle. Both weren't popular guys to some. But if they didn't respect you, they were not go to make you look good.

Some people may not think that's professional, but I have no problem with it.

One of the major exceptions was The Destroyer who could do everything, get everyone over, be professional, & be respected as a wrestler.--Yohe

IP: Logged
puffo
Member
Member # 5131

Icon 1 posted      Profile for puffo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Years ago I asked Moose Cholak about Lou Thesz. He said he was a great wretler. But he did not have the personality to sell a match. His opponents would have to sell for him during the interviews. I wonder if Thesz appreciated others mic skills?
IP: Logged
Matt Farmer from WA
Member
Member # 1177

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Matt Farmer from WA     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Jeez Thesz drew record gates all over the world. But Cholak has got to be right!

--------------------
email me at: inferno4l@hotmail.com
follow me on twitter at: @mattfarmer93

IP: Logged
Steve Yohe
Member
Member # 302

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Steve Yohe     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Wasn't it Cholak who beat Rikidozan for the world title? You can believe what he says.--Yohe
IP: Logged
puffo
Member
Member # 5131

Icon 1 posted      Profile for puffo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I think it was advertised on television that Cholak had beatedn Rikidozan. But there was no record of it. I asked Moose once but he didn't remember. He said that since they advertised it, he thought that it may true. But only based on the advertisement.
IP: Logged
Steve Yohe
Member
Member # 302

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Steve Yohe     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
It wasn't true.--Yohe
IP: Logged
ttf
Member
Member # 34

Icon 1 posted      Profile for ttf     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Thesz's sell was great, in the ring or on the mike. It was "believability". I'm still hooked.
IP: Logged
Mal
Member
Member # 81095

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Mal         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Well, Karl Gotch thought Thesz wasn't any good and that Lou was barely even a decent legit shooter.

type "karl gotch interview" in youtube to view the interview where this is discussed.

IP: Logged
Crimson Mask from FL
Administrator
Member # 10449

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Crimson Mask from FL     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
'Well,' depends when you talked to him. Gotch and Thesz had a complex relationship through the years. Gotch also said this:

http://www.puroresu.com/wrestlers/gotch_karl/article.html

--------------------
Why does 'networking' feel so identical to 'kissing ass'?

IP: Logged
ehrjr from L.I.,N.Y.
Member
Member # 4773

Icon 1 posted      Profile for ehrjr from L.I.,N.Y.     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Did Lou train anyone for pro wrestling?

--------------------
Ernie

"A Kayfabe Memory is a Terrible Thing to Waste."

Thanks for the memories, 'Naitch.

Forget it,Bret. Lou & Don are the best-you were never even close.

IP: Logged
Mal
Member
Member # 81095

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Mal         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
your interview was 1968, when Thesz still had lots of power/influence. Karl probably didn't want to get on his bad side.

the one on youtube was much later in life when Karl had nothing to gain or lose by praising or criticizing Thesz.

I agree with Karl, Thesz was way overrated from what I've seen of his matches.

IP: Logged
Crimson Mask from FL
Administrator
Member # 10449

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Crimson Mask from FL     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
You agree on what? Who was or wasn't a shooter? From watching worked matches? Really? Ever seen Mad Dog Vachon or Baron von Raschke?

Point is, some people who might figure to at least have an informed opinion, who were at least on a mat or in a ring with both, claim to agree with you. About the same number don't. This one says Gotch was all that, that one says Gotch wasn't that hard to deal with but you didn't mess with Thesz.

As you would learn if you search Gotch on this forum, they had a mentor-apprentice relationship at one point, then fell out. Lou suspected Karl of a deliberate doublecross in the match where his ribs were injured. There's a lot of subtext here. I think you have to take all that into account and all of it with a grain of salt and consider the source (like, if a guy would lie because he was afraid of power/influence, it's just as credible that he would lie the other way later when free of it) and try to realize that we'll never really know.

--------------------
Why does 'networking' feel so identical to 'kissing ass'?

IP: Logged
Crimson Mask from FL
Administrator
Member # 10449

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Crimson Mask from FL     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ehrjr from L.I.,N.Y.:
Did Lou train anyone for pro wrestling?

He said the only one he really considered his student was Sam Steamboat, but he had at least a hand in training a lot of people, including many of the Japanese guys.

--------------------
Why does 'networking' feel so identical to 'kissing ass'?

IP: Logged
Crimson Mask from FL
Administrator
Member # 10449

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Crimson Mask from FL     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
http://wrestlingclassics.com/.ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=10;t=001327

--------------------
Why does 'networking' feel so identical to 'kissing ass'?

IP: Logged
Mal
Member
Member # 81095

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Mal         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Crimson Mask, why is every response you post smart alec in some way? What's your deal?

I agree that Thesz was an overrated wrestler by watching his matches. He was not a shooter, had no shoot matches, so i personally have no clue about that part.

I agree with you that I don't KNOW what Gotch thought (don't think anyone on the board is a mind-reader), only what he said. The thread is about people who may have disliked Thesz, so I mentioned Gotch because he said some things negative about thesz.

I'll "try to realize that I'll never really know"(as you say) and try not to lose too much sleep over what one dead man thought of another dead man decades ago.
LOL.

IP: Logged
Crimson Mask from FL
Administrator
Member # 10449

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Crimson Mask from FL     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mal:
Crimson Mask, why is every response you post smart alec in some way? What's your deal?

It's a gift from God. Try not to envy it too much.

'LOL'

--------------------
Why does 'networking' feel so identical to 'kissing ass'?

IP: Logged
Crimson Mask from FL
Administrator
Member # 10449

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Crimson Mask from FL     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
And while you enjoy your week vacation, try to make figuring out the difference between repsonding to the post and responding to the poster your 'deal'.

--------------------
Why does 'networking' feel so identical to 'kissing ass'?

IP: Logged
Grobbit
Member
Member # 80932

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Grobbit     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I've given some thought to the notion that Lou wasn't 'all that' as a hooker/shooter.

The Bert Assirati thing where there was some notion Lou might have swerved him (Lou said it was just because they worked for different people) made me think.

After thinking about it, I just have this to say - if Lou wasn't all that, why did no-one (to my knowledge) ever hand him his ass?

Lou certainly wasn't universally popular, as Mr Yohe says, no-one who becomes #1 at anything is without their detractors; so I'm sure there were guys who thought about trying it on in the ring with him, whether they were guys with legit backgrounds like Gagne or tough street fighter types.

So, where is the evidence that anyone ever tried and futhermore succeeded in getting the better of Lou? He was around long enough that there was ample opportunity for it to happen.

The one big caveat to this line of thinking though is that Lou was a worker in a worked business and guys with half a brain would know that is was stupid business to try to shoot on Lou, even if you did get the better of it, you just peed all over your reputation as someone who could be trusted and probably ensured you never got to work the top of the card again.

So, while Lou might not have the legit shoot match history to point to as proof, I see scant evidence that he wasn't legit enough that someone would have been able to expose his 'myth' at some point.

Maybe the Rikidozan match in Hawaii is something to look at. Riki wasn't a top level shooter, but he was maybe at the level of an Inoki, and he was a strong powerful guy, he was able to knock the hell out of Kimura (with the caveat of it being a worked situation he took advantage of) and when he was in Hawaii against Lou, he never got a chance to pull anything with Lou because Lou never gave him the opening and I suspect if Riki had been stupid enough to try to do to Lou what he did to Kimura, we wouldn't be speculating about just what Lou could do because we'd have footage of him doing it to Riki in Hawaii.

Finally, someone with the skill level Lou had, if they were legitimately stretching and hooking someone in a match, would we even know? Unless one or other party talked about it afterwards, someone of Lou's ability would be able to control, dominate, stretch and punish someone in the ring and we wouldn't know it wasn't just the same mat wrestling we'd seen before, it's a tiny fraction often between working a hold and hooking someone. What I'm getting at is, if someone tried it on with Lou and they got stretched, then decided to co-operate and work to a finish, unless Lou tells us 'he got cute so I stretched him' how would we ever know? That guy in there being stretched with the STF might be selling or Lou might be putting on enough force to almost pop a vertebrae because the guy got cute. When you are as skilled as Lou undoubtedly was, I'm pretty sure you could stretch a guy all over the place and have him crying for his momma and only a trained eye could tell it wasn't just the usual worked match.

I expect there were lots of these little 'shoot moments' within worked matches in Lou's long career and I think Lou was classy enough that for most of them, we know nothing because Lou never told us so-and-so tried something and got embarassed.

Didn't really mean to write a defence of Lou, just saying, where's the evidence that he wasn't a truly elite level shooter/hooker? People have surely looked for it and what have they turned up? Some comments from Gotch seems to be about all, and if Gotch didn't like Thesz and thought he could take him, how come he never did? Broken rib incident aside, I don't think Gotch ever tried anything.

--------------------
"If I hit him with the left hand and he's still standing, I will walk around him to see whats holding him up." - Harley Race

IP: Logged
Grobbit
Member
Member # 80932

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Grobbit     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
One other thought, there is a difference in character and approach between a guy like Lou Thesz and a guy like, for instance, Harley Race. Everyone acknowledged that Harley was as tough as they come and with a guy like Harley, all it takes is one left hand to prove the point, over the years, Harley made a lot of salient points with that left. With Lou however, his character and persona was entirely different, he couldn't just knock a guy out cold like Harley could, it wasn't fitting for Lou's character as the erudite, refined, classy champion to act that way. Harley was a street tough type character so it only enhanced his image to prove on the spot that he was the real deal by knocking a guy out cold. Lou, if challenged on being the real deal or not would take a different approach and politely inform the person that if they cared to meet him at the nearest gym in the morning, he would be delighted to issue a full riposte.

So what I'm saying is, Harley's rep is out there, writ large and undisputed because he was able to prove it in public on many occasions, whereas Lou's rep is more open to question because he didn't prove it in the same public manner. However, there may be a lot of instances in private workouts in gyms where Lou proved his rep was just as real as Harley's.

[ 04-03-2013, 03:45 AM: Message edited by: Grobbit ]

--------------------
"If I hit him with the left hand and he's still standing, I will walk around him to see whats holding him up." - Harley Race

IP: Logged
Steve Yohe
Member
Member # 302

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Steve Yohe     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'm met sone old insiders who seemed to dislike Lou or at least got a kick out of negative things said about him. A large percentage of people in wrestling resent others who are on top. Stars in dressing rooms today, have to kiss everyones butt. Everyone or people will be talking bad about them. The sport is filled with jealous people. There seems to be a rule book on how to act in the locker room. Seems Lou didn't read the book & didn't want be play around with fools.

But I've never hear one of the insiders say he wasn't tough, in condition at all times & a skilled hooker. It's impossible to be the toughest guy in the world over 40 years or whatever...but Lou was good.

Gotch didn't try Lou because he was a pro wrestler. It's a work & it's not his job to mess with any champion or anyone else.

The complains I do hear from some smart fans, who watch tons of tapes, is that Lou was overrated as a worker. Some of my best friends are like that. They think Lou wasn't that good. At tape watching parties, I hear it all the time & some of there points make sense...but then I love watching Thesz wrestle & I'm not one of them. They think everyone should work like it's 1980.

These are the same type guys who think Bruiser Brody's work is a huge joke. And even in seeing his strong points, I think he was pretty funny. Others put dowm Sayama etc.

Nothing make me think that Thesz wasn't a major hooker. Al least in the world of pro wrestling. It's not the same thing as MMA. --Steve Yohe

IP: Logged
Grobbit
Member
Member # 80932

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Grobbit     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Great post Steve, I agree with you completely, especially about Gotch not messing with things, I expect most people Lou worked with from the point he became champ to the end of his career were professional in that way, I expect guys who were liable to try to do something wouldn't reach the top of the card and get to face Lou anyways.

I grew up watching the British style, guys like Jim Breaks, Johnny Saint, so scientific wrestling was something I was always familiar with.

Whenever I've seen anything of Thesz on tape, he looked great to me, and I like to think I can recognise proper scientific grappling.

I agree with your point about Lou being tough, in shape and skilled, he was also quite a sizeable guy and obviously strong, the way he lifted Rikidozan for that Greco Roman front body drop showed that.

Finally, that's a great point about pro wrestling not being MMA, I should have made that point too, it's a bit of a pointless act really to try and determine how someone would do in one if they only ever did the other. Lou never did MMA and I think a lot of people try to extrapolate too much about how he would have done in MMA from his pro wrestling work. I always maintain, until you see a guy actually fight in MMA you have no idea how he will do, no matter how mean a pro wrestler he might have been. Just watch Steve Williams in Pride to see how a tough guy aura can evaporate in less than a minute.

--------------------
"If I hit him with the left hand and he's still standing, I will walk around him to see whats holding him up." - Harley Race

IP: Logged
Crimson Mask from FL
Administrator
Member # 10449

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Crimson Mask from FL     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
It was an MMA fight in K1 actually. In fairness he was already sick by that point.

But yeah. You can't know how anybody will do in MMA even from seeing them in another shoot combat sport, let alone rassling. But that's what makes it fun to speculate on.

--------------------
Why does 'networking' feel so identical to 'kissing ass'?

IP: Logged
Blind Guy
Member
Member # 40601

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Blind Guy     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I don't pretend to be a Thesz scholar but the past few posts touch on a facet that adds to some of the interesting mystique.

A current fan can see some youtube and tape and get an appreciation for what was going on back in the day.

What I think makes a great contrast is the body of work that is missed - and maybe for the better!

The work in the 70's & 80's, where a legend past his prime was facing Bruce Swayze in a burg in Kentucky in tag action, with practically unknown partners, Lou working with the Terry Sawyer types. Doing the work with El Canek for the good of the sport.

This, I think, adds to the points above about the locker room interaction and status Mr. Thesz probably maintained through this stretch.

Apples and oranges somewhat, but certainly a different aura than what we saw following, with others like Flair, Hogan, Terry Funk, Greg Valentine, Abdullah, Big Daddy etc. pushing the envelope on extending a career. The business was different by then & the "legend exhibiting skill" cachet was replaced with "sure, book it, but this is such an extreme work, it's a sad joke".

In a way, the pot-shot, negative sniping Mr. Thesz got can be considered an honor that he earned.

--------------------
Michael Moriarty as Henry Wiggen in, "Bang the Drum Slowly" (1973)

"From here on in, I rag nobody"

IP: Logged
KURT HOLBOOK
Member
Member # 5503

Icon 1 posted      Profile for KURT HOLBOOK     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
MY POPS WROTE:
SIX CHAMPIONS I HAVE KNOWN...
I DRESSED ON ONE SIDE OF THE BUILDING AND THEY ON THE OTHER,I FACED THEM,HEARD THEM SWEAR,LAUGH,BREATH AND EXHALE IN PAIN..I KNOW THESE SIX MEN.
SANDOR SZABO CLASSY,DAMN GOOD WRESTLER..BUT NOT A "WILD BILL" LONGSON..
TOUGH,ROUGH,INTELLIGENT,AGGRESSIVE AND IN SHAPE.,BUT NOT A RAY STEELE..
NOT BIG,OR UNUSALLY STRONG,NOT MEAN BUT IF YOU WERE IN THE RING WITH RAY AND YOU WANTED TO GO SOMEWHERE ELSE IN THAT RING,WHEN YOU ARRIVED,HE WAS ALREADY THERE.SMOOTH TECHNICIAN,GREAT WRESTLER..BUT I DID NOT FIND HIM TO BE A JIM LONDOS.
PHYSICAL PERFECTION AND TREMENDOUS INTELLIGENCE. I KNEW AT LEAST 1,000 WRESTLERS IN MY CAREER AND YEAT ONLY ONE WAS CALLED "MISTER" BY HIS FELLOWS..BUT I WOULD NOT TAKE MR. LONDOS OVER "STRANGLER" ED LEWIS.
I WRESTLED HIM ON TWO OCCASIONS,30 MINUTES IN DURATION.HE WAS OVER 60 YEARS OLD AND I SPENT THE TIME TRYING TO STAY OUT OF HIS HEADLOCKS AND FIND A WAY TO GET HIM OFF HIS FEET.HE HAD BALANCE AND STRENGTH THAT ASTOUNDED ME..HE BEAT THE BEST THERE WAS.
ED LEWIS CONTRIBUTED MUCH WHAT MAKES LOU THESZ THE BEST OF THEM ALL.
LOU HAD THE MOST PERFECT PHYSICAL CAPABILITY I HAVE SEEN IN ANY ATHLETE. CHARMING, INTELLIGENT,GENTLE,MOST COMPETITIVE . IF STEELE BEAT YOU TO A POINT IN THE RING..LOU HAD ALREADY BEEN THERE AND LEFT. SO FAST IN THE RING..WOULD TELL YOU "I AM GOING TO LEG DIVE YOU", AND THEN MAKE THE MOVE BEFORE YOU COULD REACT.GREAT SPEED,TIMING,STAMINA,STRENGTH.
I AM NOT QUALIFIED TO DISCUSS ANY OF THE MEN WHO HAVE CLAIMED THE TITLE SINCE THESZ, BUT EVERY BONE,SINEW AND MUSCLE OF MY BODY SCREAMS: THEY ARE NOT THESZ".
I SAY TO ALL SIX OF THESE MEN,THANK YOU FOR BRINGING GUTS,TALENT AND CLASS TO MY BUSINESS.
FEB..1975

IP: Logged
Grobbit
Member
Member # 80932

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Grobbit     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Crimson Mask from FL:
It was an MMA fight in K1 actually. In fairness he was already sick by that point.

But yeah. You can't know how anybody will do in MMA even from seeing them in another shoot combat sport, let alone rassling. But that's what makes it fun to speculate on.

I stand corrected, only saw it once, didn't enjoy it, referred to remember Steve as the destructive force he was in AJPW and Mid-South. I didn't realise he was already sick, makes it even more sad.

I forget where I heard it now, but someone once said that there was no way to know how tough someone was until you saw how they reacted to being punched real hard. Plenty walked the walk etc then the tough aura evaporated at the point of someone's fist.

That's a very interesting post about Lewis, Thesz etc. Ed Lewis is a very interesting character to me, I've read Yohe's work on the subject and a few other snippetts and it's hard/impossible to get a feeling for his prowess really as there is all the confusion over what was a work and what might have been a shoot and all the antics he was notorious for, the laying down at ringside for a breather etc. Lewis was definitely a showman and a great entertainer, and many say he was a great shooter, but due to how long ago it was, the film and the eye witnesses don't exist to verify things.

--------------------
"If I hit him with the left hand and he's still standing, I will walk around him to see whats holding him up." - Harley Race

IP: Logged
OldSchool84
Member
Member # 29943

Icon 1 posted      Profile for OldSchool84     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"But I've never hear one of the insiders say he wasn't tough, in condition at all times & a skilled hooker. "

According to Karl Gotch's final interview Lou "couldn't hook" could be more sour grapes than anything else.

IP: Logged
Steve Yohe
Member
Member # 302

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Steve Yohe     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Which interview is that? It may have been his last one, but I remember him saying something else in others. Is the last more truthfull than another?

There was heat between the two guys. It would be hard to put both egos in one room.

Thesz was a major star in wrestling history and a insider. Gotch never got the push in American & kind of resented it.

If your a booker and have a Karl Gotch or a Thesz, you have to push them to the top or not use them at all. People didn't trust Gotch in America, so he trained a lot of great Japanese wrestlers. Lou bought St Louis & no one worried about trust.

Another point, I didn't know Gotch, so I never hear him say anything. So the statement is covered.

Another point, wrestlers like these two, don't go to a gym and "shoot" with each other. If they did go to the same gym, it was at at different times. They didn't risk a reputation they already had. All they ever did was "work" in public with each other.

I asked Beyer if Wilbur Snyder was a good wrestler....he said yeah, he seemed like he was. I said he didn't wrestle in school. Dick said "Well I just worked with him". It's not the same thing. You can't really tell how good a wrestler really is by working a match with him. At least that's how it seems to me from conversations.

It might be said that pro wrestling & working is real....and the world of shooting, before UFC & outside of parts of England, was the fantasy. At least with in the dimensions of a pro wrestling fan's mind.

Then again...I know nothing.

Steve Yohe

[ 05-20-2014, 12:29 AM: Message edited by: Steve Yohe ]

IP: Logged
  This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2   

Quick Reply
Message:

HTML is enabled.
UBB Code™ is enabled.

Instant Graemlins
   


Post New Topic  New Poll  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | WrestlingClassics.com Home Page

Click here to see the WCMB Rules and Regulations

Powered by UBB.classic™ 6.7.3